Friday, April 20, 2012

Dogen Sangha International is No More

In one of my comments on the previous posting I said that I might dissolve Dogen Sangha International but not just yet.

 Well, I've thought about it some more and I've decided that now is the time to put the thing out of its misery. As of today April 20, 2012 at 7:00 PM Eastern Standard Time (USA), Dogen Sangha International is no more.

Any groups who wish to continue using the name Dogen Sangha may do so. Not that you need my permission anyway. And that's that.

Phew!

 I've wanted to do this for a very long time. There's really no reason to wait any longer. I'm not retiring my position as a monk or discontinuing teaching Zen or anything like that. I'm simply ending Dogen Sangha International.

135 comments:

Anonymous said...

ZERO!

Anonymous said...

Which solvent is most effective for dissolving a sangha?

I would guess that it's probably alcohol.

Anonymous said...

What am I going to do with my Dogen Sangha Jersey?

Seagal Rinpoche said...

Life is the only real counselor; wisdom unfiltered through personal experience does not become a part of the moral tissue.

Anonymous said...

Dear Roshi,

Sorry to disturb you and everyone with this again.

Michael's latest post on his homepage is particularly strange, especially the reference to "suicidal thoughts" and "rage" while sitting Zazen. My psychiatrist friend (I have not contacted him again about this) told me that such use of such destructive (self-destructive and other-destructive) violent words by Michael is not accidental.

Gudo Sensei, most of me never wants to speak to Michael again and to just "cut off" all contact. I find him disturbed and disturbing. However, as Buddhists, we need compassion even at the most personally difficult times and difficult persons. So, I recommend the following to you ...

(1) Michael be told that he can return to Dogen Sangha upon furnishing written proof of completion of 1 year of weekly therepy sessions with a psychiatrist or other mental health professional, plus proof of continued therapy thereafter if his doctor feels it necessary. Michael will then have to furnish a letter signed by his doctor that the doctor feels further psychological therapy is not necessary, or that Michael is properly continuing to receive treatment after that 1 year.

(2) Until that time, he needs to be cut off by us completely. His posting should be blocked on your Blog, the link to his Blog removed, and we have to use "tough love." That means that we have to have compassion not to encourage him by feeding his hungry ghosts (the term my friend used is "facilitate his illness."). If he gets help, then we welcome our Brother back. Until that time, he needs to take responsibility for himself.

I am cc'ing the other people on the DogenSangha list, but (after thinking about it) not Michael at this time. I will disclose the letter to Michael if that is the consensus of the group.

By the way, compare the following words of Michael to the test that doctors use for PPD: Gassho, Jundo

The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (American Psychiatric Association) describes Paranoid Personality Disorder as a pervasive distrust and suspiciousness of others such that their motives are interpreted as malevolent, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by four (or more) of the following:

* suspects, without sufficient basis, that others are exploiting, harming, or deceiving him or her;

* is preoccupied with unjustified doubts about the loyalty or trustworthiness of friends or associates;

* is reluctant to confide in others because of unwarranted fear that the information will be used maliciously against him or her;

* reads hidden demeaning or threatening meanings into benign remarks or events;

* persistently bears grudges, i.e., is unforgiving of insults , injuries, or slights perceives attacks on his or her character or reputation that are not apparent to others and is quick to react angrily or to counterattack;

* has recurrent suspicions, without justification, regarding fidelity of spouse or sexual partner.

Korey said...

Brad I noticed you deleted one of my comments on one of your recent blogs. I hope I didn't offend you or say anything to anger you cause that was not my intention at all. Just wanted to say sorry if I said anything that upset you dude...

Anonymous said...

Look, Michael, when you fixate on Nishijima or me ... that's why I initiated discussion in the Sangha about maybe you should talk to a counceler (and I spoke to a doctor friend of mine who said we should point you in that direction). I came to Dogen Sangha late, after already doing this Zen thing 20 years. So, it is like my adopted family. I'd never met such an angry Buddhist before. Your like a brother who has some demon inside him that has emerged in recent years, causing him to beat up on his father and siblings. Unfortunately, neither Zazen nor AT can slay all demons, and eventually even patient, old Nishijima had to ask you to leave US.

Anyway, I have said too much again. Please post this somewhere prominent as my response to all this. I just don't know what to do. I am sorry if any of my frustration and sarcasm has seeped out through the edges of my entrenched Buddhist equinimity.

Gassho, Jundo

Anonymous said...

Let's put the Jundo stuff on the last blog post?

john e mumbles said...

Hey Brad, congratulations. That's got to be a load off your shoulders. Hopefully this will end speculation and confusion and you and everyone can move on.

Anonymous said...

"DSI" (modeled after CSI) would probably make a great ebook. Place it in Japan as a crime team. Just the lightest allegorical treatment to actual people and events would be all that is needed. It would be fantastic!

Anonymous said...

How about a 0DFX cover of this song but sing D-S-I instead?

It kind of works :)

Khru Jr. said...

BRAD:

IF YOU GET A SECOND, PLEASE TAKE A PICTURE OF YOURSELF WAIST-DOWN, NAKED. I'M PARTICULARLY INTERESTED IN YOUR PUBIC HAIR AND PENIS.

MAYBE ONE PICTURE IN AN AKIMBO POSE AND A SECOND ONE WITH YOUR PENIS TUCKED IN, LIKE YOU HAVE A VAGINA.

THANKS, MY FRIEND.

Gudo Gomez said...

Can we make Seagal Rinpoche the Head Helper™ of the NEW Dogen Sangha International?

Seagal Rinpoche - Head Helper™
Khru Jr. - Treasurer
Mysterion - Secretary
Jundo - Fool

Korey said...

ANonymous,

Who's Michael and what is his blog about? I might wanna peep it.

Anonymous said...

http://the-middle-way.blogspot.com/

Anonymous said...

He then goes on to say, “But generally I don’t care about any of these people. Some of them are probably nice, well meaning guys. Others are clearly in it for the money. It’s like rock and roll or movies of any other form of mass entertainment. Most of what ends up being big is garbage calculated specifically to appeal to the lowest common denominator. Though on rare occasions something good breaks through. Spirituality in 21st century America is one more form of popular amusement.”

These quotes provide the perfect snapshot of my issue with Brad’s writing. First, note the most obvious inconsistancy. He doesn’t know who these people are or follow the “Buddhist scene in America,” but he constantly opines about said other teachers and the Buddhist scene in America. That to me doesn’t make a bit of sense.

I also note his self-assuredness. While the title of his piece “Why All Spiritual Teachers Other Than Me, Nishijima Roshi and Dogen SUCK ASS!!!!” is tongue-in-cheek, it also fairly accurately reflects Brad’s writings. He often does this, actually, where he’ll say one thing in jest to try and lessen the narrow-minded impact it has on the reader.

Brad writes later, “Maybe Reggie Ray isn’t like that. Maybe he really is great. I don’t know and I’m not all that interested in finding out. No disrespect to Mr. Ray intended. It’s just that I have a teacher. I don’t really feel any great need to find someone else or to sample all the flavors out there on the spiritual buffet table. I’m just not into that sort of thing.”

This is like Brad’s mantra. One needs only one teacher, and his is the only one he will listen to. Yikes! To my eyes, at any rate, isn’t this attitutde dismissive and narrow-minded? Just because you have a teacher doesn’t mean you shut your eyes and ears off to anything else. That’s just weird to me. What Brad calls a spiritual buffet is what most of us call being open and not knowing everything.

I’m just wary of anyone who sets themselves up as the guy who is authentic – the real Buddha dope. I think people should seek out all kinds teachers in life. To decide you’ve settled that matter, case-closed, strikes me as stagnant, arrogant and childish. Anyway, not sure why I felt like putting my foot in this but there it is.

Anonymous said...

E-Sangha is Being Sued

Posted by Jundo Cohen

I feel that there has been a long history of sect bashing, discriminatory actions, impositions of punishment, disparagement and the like, by the non-Zen Buddhist administrators (mostly Tibetan Buddhist practitioners and various priests from conservative traditions) directed specifically at Zen Buddhist practitioners and clergy ... especially those expressing what the administrators see as Buddhist teachings conflicting with their own views of Buddhism (for example, the administrators would regularly pop into the "Soto Zen" forum, delete postings explaining Soto Zen doctrine by various Soto Zen clergy, substitute their own interpretations of Buddhist doctrine as "correct" in place of views that were not "the Buddha's teachings" as they see them ... and ban or censor anyone protesting).

The situation became so bad that it was felt some action should be taken. All attempts at reasonable discussion failed, emails were not answered, any suggestions to fix the problems were not even responded to.

I am now a retired lawyer. I am a Buddhist priest. Truly, I do not believe in most any kind of dispute, and I believe that very little in life is worth fighting about … but when it comes to matters of free speech, racial or religious discrimination, sect defamation and the like, well, that is a different story and goes right to the heart of what is still worth defending in our society … even by Buddhists.

So, to make a long story short, Singapore, the home base of E-Sangha and of its owners, happens to have some of the world's most aggressive legal protections against religious intolerance. For example, they possess a licensing authority for the internet, not unlike the FCC for broadcast stations in America, and E-Sangha's actions can be challenged there as an act "causing feelings of enmity, hatred, ill-will or hostility between different religious groups and sects." We decided to file a petition there and with certain other civil authorities in Singapore as our one available, effective avenue of protest. There will also be a civil claim filed to accompany this.

And that is why the administrators of E-Sangha, instead of talking with us about these issues, took their usual stance ... they simply shut down the "Soto Zen" forum altogether in an attempt to fully silence all discussion.

Anonymous said...

What the FUCK is Dharma Wheel?!?

"by Dechen Norbu » Thu Apr 12, 2012 3:59 pm


Jundo,

I'm not even going to comment the sheer amount of things that disqualify you as a Buddhist, in my personal opinion, let alone as a Buddhist teacher. But that's my take, and you surely disagree.
In my opinion, you are that kind of guy who makes a living as lifeguard, all geared up and everything, in spite of not having the slightest idea about how to swim. Result? When you enter the water to save someone, both drown.
Just notice, as a friendly reminder, that this isn't ZFI. The sort of "teachings" you pass as Buddhadharma over there won't be allowed here unless in the Dharma-free-for-all subforum, opened to debate under its rules.


To all,

A fantastic meal with a drop of poison will kills you guys, not mattering how yummy it seems. Keep that in mind.
Poison in disguise is still poison. Some of Jundo's teachings and opinions are very controversial, even if very eloquent and well presented in this day and age. They are seen by many as gross corruptions of the Buddhist teachings. So, caveat emptor."

Jinzang said...

E-Sangha is Being Sued. Posted by Jundo Cohen

This is ancient history. E-Sangha is no more, it's been gone for a good while. Is there some reason people are dredging up Jundo's past history? I don't follow what he's doing.

alan sailer said...

Jinzang,

I don't follow all these controversies closely enough to know if they are current or old news.

However it is an interesting question as to why some people, mostly Anonymous, jump in whenever certain subjects come up and start posting transcripts or links to material like this.

Are they just trying to whip up a controversy? What's the point?

Random troll stuff? That kind of mind set is so far from anything I would ever consider posting that I kind of draw a blank.

At least the 9/11 Truthers seem to have a clear agenda.....

Cheers.

Mysterion said...

I'm already secretary of District 159...

never mind.

I thought Jumping Jundo wanted Brad to be Head Helper®.

Oh well...

Since I have "New, Improved Pure Land," someone else will have to take DSI.

Congrats Brad! You can now just get on with the life of a wandering mendicant - mythological style.

Tame horses, befriend towns folk...




or not.

Khru Jr said...

I'm really mysterion if you hadn't guessed by now Brad.

Khru Jr said...

I've always loved you..

Mysterion said...

I am not "___________" fill in the blank.

I am nobody.

I am nobody at all.

I have my own "New, Improved Pure Land Buddhism."

Jodo Shu (pure land)

became

Jodo Shinshu (New Pure Land)

and since it could be improved once, it could be improved twice yielding

"New, Improved Pure Land Buddhism."

It has no leader, no follower, no nonsense and no sense. In short, it is improved to the point of removing all stains! And, it kill both ticks and fleas!

Be a flashlight unto yourself!*

*Batteries not included.

Mysterion said...

I did look up Khru.

Khru means teacher.

All that matters to me is THIS little critter...

And the truth about lies.

Since I like truth, I dislike religions.

I don't hate anything or anyone. Hate is a waste of time and effort.

Dislike simply means "not taking the time to appreciate."

I suspect Khru Jr. is only a scientologist.

The difference between a scientologist and a catfish is one is a low-life scum-sucking bottom-feeder and the other one is a fish.

Mysterion said...

There was plotting and conspiracy within Shin!

Thus, to be pure, Improved® can have no leaders, no followers, no nonsense and no sense. There is no other way!

Hope a little fetchin' up helped ya'all.

LRon said...

mysti:

never kick a church when it's down.

The Decline and (Probable) Fall of the Scientology Empire!

http://lippard.blogspot.com/2012/01/decline-and-probable-fall-of-church-of.html

Village Voice
http://blogs.villagevoice.com/runninscared/2012/01/scientology_decline_fall_skeptic.php

Daily Kos
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/01/27/1059183/-Falling-Down-Scientology-s-Signs-Decline

Scientology in Orange County may be struggling
http://blogs.ocweekly.com/navelgazing/2012/04/scientologys_orange_county_org_uses_koi_fish_cat_in_youtube_video_calling_for_volunteers.php

Foreign loans keep Irish branch of Scientology afloat
http://anonireland.com/blog/2012/03/foreign-loans-keep-irish-branch-of-scientology-afloat/

"This is the church
this is the steeple..."

anonymous anonymous said...

Anonymous mysterion said, "I suspect Khru Jr. is only a scientologist."

Anonymous chairman wao said...

"Mc Billy Bob, pinkboy, you're tooo stoopid even for bad Darwinism ala EO. You're no scientist, having flunked the first year of yr LVN studies. You're a........ scientologist! (and hope yr preacher doesn't catch you posting Darwin! .. .you'd lose yr..firm handshake rights at First Church of the Blessed Yokel)".

mysterion may be edgeucated but he is stoopid as a box of rocks! I mean common.. Does anyone not see what this guy really is?

Anonymous said...

dude...

you tossed the baby out with the bath water.

jason

Anonymous said...

i was thinking about it all day long, thinking that this is such a waste of an oppertunity. the idea was close to me because i don't believe in culture (just that people do what they have to do in order to meet the same needs)...but that difference is moderately significant...i guess... actually a dogen sangha international, with a code of conduct and rules and whatnot would stagnant 'zen'(may be even buddhism if it got popular enough). because it wouldn't be allowed to grow in the different 'cultures', to be expressed in the many myraid ways.

my apologies...may be you actually did dogen a favour. let everyone practise dogen's teaching's their own way...actually, we are doing that with shakymuni's 'buddhism'.

jason

Anonymous said...

Yay!

Just because some guy hands you his baggage doesn't mean you have to carry it for him!!!!

Anonymous said...

Did all this come out of Chet's post on Treeleaf? A Rube Goldberg car crash? Hilarious.

Harry said...

Interesting (long) piece on the Four Foundations of Mindfulness from our old buddy Trungpa:


... even to apply bare attention to what we are doing is impossible. If we try, we have two personalities: one personality is the bare attention; the other personality is doing things. Real bare attention is being there all at once. We do not apply bare attention to what we are doing; we are not mindful of what we are doing. That is impossible. Mindfulness is the act as well as the experience, happening at the same time. Obviously, we could have a somewhat dualistic attitude at the beginning, before we get into real mindfulness, that we are willing to be mindful, willing to surrender, willing to discipline ourselves. But then we do the thing; we just do it. It is like the famous Zen saying "When I eat, I eat; when I sleep, I sleep." You just do it, with absolutely no implication behind what you are doing, not even of mindfulness.

http://www.shambhala.org/teachers/vctr/fourfoundations.html

Regards,

H.

Uku said...

Respect, Brad! I truly believe that people will now find more Nishijima's and Dogen's teachings instead of some bizarre McDogenSangha brand. That's why I changed 2010 (or was it 2011?) my Zen group's name Dogen Sangha Finland into Kajo Zendo because so many seemed to think we're following some strange McDS brand. Hell no.

Long live Dogen's and Nishijima's teachings! I believe this is a good day for us all and especially for Dogen's and Nishijima's precious heritage.

Good decision!

Anonymous said...

Page 189

Harry said...

Hi Uku,

Yeah, now your group can follow your very own strange McUku brand. Advantage?

Regards,

Harry.

Anonymous said...

Would you like to SuperSize™ that?

Anonymous said...

If you meet Dogen Sangha International on the road, kill Dogen Sangha International.

Harry said...

p.s.

It's probably better that DSI (Dharma Scene Inverstigation) doesn't exist under a 'leader' who feels that he has sole say over whether the entity, and/or non-entity, should exist or not.

Organisations are not the problem. Organisation can be good. Leaders are the problem.

Regards,

Harry.

Anonymous said...

mysterion and chairman wao are the same person and belong to the McUku Cult.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous mysterion said, "I suspect Khru Jr. is only a scientologist."

Anonymous chairman wao said...

"You're a........ scientologist! (and hope yr preacher doesn't catch you posting Darwin! .. .you'd lose yr..firm handshake rights at First Church of the Blessed Yokel)".

First Church of the Blessed Yokel = McUku Cult

Anonymous said...

What's with all the fascination with Dogen? I think you should broaden your horizons a little bit now that you've dissolved your organization. The assertion that one zen master was the awesomest zen master and that's all we're going to study is not going to fly in America. At some point you have to start speaking from your own realization and stop referencing Dogen and Gudo like a mindless puppet. I don't care what Dogen said or Gudo said, tell me how it is right now for you at this very moment. That's really all there is to Buddhism. Anyone who tells you otherwise is trying to sell you something, like audio books and magazine subscriptions.

Anonymous said...

Fuck you, previous Anonymous. No one cares what you think and no one wants to impress you.

Mark Foote said...

mothers, mothers! Let's get a grip!

Like the Trungpa quote, Mr. H., thanks for that. Like the Westy pictures. Like that Mysterion has his own Gollum.

Brad dissolves his mind, before he makes it up. Has a cup of tea. Goes back to bed, waking up. Oranges, and marigolds, another day in the sun for Crum. Why does it seem like women are the issue?

I hope the Los Angeles D.S. and the Kajo Zendo prosper and have potlucks. I'd like to attend; we can stream consciousness like a video, and wonder that nothing really happened.

People that like to sit, and don't really know why they should, join hands and sing together? Could Dogen carry a tune?

Anonymous said...

No but he liked tuna fish (not big ones).

Mysterion said...

Anonymous Anonymous said...
"What's with all the fascination with Dogen?"

To Dogen is attributed the founding of Soto Zen - the largest (most popular) form of Zen Buddhism in Japan, the form adopted by the beatnicks in America in the 1950s, and the form popularized by Alan Watts (the Anglican Alcoholic).

Therefore newbie Zen-lite wanna-bees gravitate toward the recordings of Alan Watts or the limited writings of Dogen - assuming that they are in the habit of reading anything. They also avoid the embarrassment of Koan Study.

One must understand that there are approximately 200 popular forms of Buddhism extant in the same way that there are 200+ popular forms of Christianity in today's religious marketplace - including Sarah Palin's Pentecostal Tong-lashers.

The cult of Dogen is somewhat centered on Shobogenzo. Like punk, it's a way to be kewl.







or not.

Moni said...

I do not like institutional things too much and do not know anything about the history of Dogen Sangha International either.

But this seems like a long awaited break up, which always does good to the soul and creates a large amount of energy :).

Bradford Warner said...

"... Zen-lite wanna-bees... "

And by contrast, you are? Don't try and make this all about how long you've been sitting. Tell me about your deeper understanding and knowledge that allows you to look down on others like you frequently do.

Smiley said...

That's too bad, especially after all the time you put into the logo :(

Uku said...

Smiley, that logo is originally Dogen Sangha Finland's logo. Finland has removed and replaced with International. :)
My good friend Rammu made the original logo (and also KZ's logo).

I 'n I Buddhafari, like my friend Tuomas once wrote!

Mysterion said...

I don't "look down" at others...

I look across.

"to the beginner's mind..."

anonymous anonymous anonymous said...

Do you have "beginner's mind" Mysterion?

Anonymous said...

nevermind

Mysterion said...

I have made perhaps a third to half of the mistakes others will make and I am still looking for the other mistakes to make...

When you start to believe, you have lost your beginner's mind.

When you still have the capacity of fluid thought, you can consider the alternatives. (e.g. Did Dogen go to China?)

An expert knows the truth - or knows that there is no truth. Therefore gnosis, like sophia, is but a myth of perception failing to epic proportions.

“In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities. In the expert's mind there are few.”
- Shunryu Suzuki

The above quote, like 200 scientologists at the bottom of the Challenger Deep, is only a beginning.

MORE Quotes for Sea-Gull Rim-shotie

Jinzang said...

The assertion that one zen master was the awesomest zen master and that's all we're going to study is not going to fly in America.

I understand the appeal of changing Buddhism so that it's more acceptable to Americans. But if you give people what they want, what you wind up with is McDonalds. Which may be popular, but neither good, nor healthy.

Bow Wow Wow said...

I want Candy

Fred said...

"Could Dogen carry a tune?"

Dogen was the mountain stream and
the birds singing.

Anonymous said...

A long time coming but not surprising. Good luck. I suspect that the Ghost of DSI will haunt you forever.

Fred said...

Mental constructs like Dogen Sangha
International are the hardest and easiest to get rid of.

Anonymous said...

i'm sure brad will lose sleep over all the haters. seems so Buddhist to go and belittle someone on the internet. who i happen to think is trying to introduce a whole group of disenfranchised youth the world of Buddhism(I'm sure that was your whole goal too - the whole punk rock band wagon youth market; smart move) A lot of people in history seem to squabble over teachings and teachers and scholars... but some people will just see the flower and it doesn't matter how you get there when you have the will to seek the truth honestly. as i like to say "we all live the same story, we just narrate it differently" - been saying that as long as i can remember, hopefully brads narration of his truth and way will be close enough to lead a lot more Americans to shut up and sit down (see what i did there?) and figure it out for themselves, Buddha is so happy that all these people are here to keep his law im sure!

Rich Mallard said...

Fuck in' A!!! They needto find their OWN way 'n stop followin' another. One's own truth is found within. Just fuck in' "BE", people.

Mysterion said...

wait

Wait

WAIT!

I want to join DSI.

Where do I download the PDF file to sign up?

Here is the Fry's Application for the job seekers among you.*


*humor

For those of you who don't know Frys, see HERE. It's a 'theme' electronics store. Palo Alto is Western Theme, San Jose is Egyptian, Burbank is UFO, and Fremont is just a Big Box ugly store.

Anonymous said...

Jinzang said, "But if you give people what they want, what you wind up with is McDonalds. Which may be popular, but neither good, nor healthy."

That is so arrogant. Who made you king of correctness? It's none of your fucking business if people want to eat that shit. I don't but IT'S MY CHOICE! We don't need your inpute on every fucking thing!

Anonymous said...

Knowing that mysterion is a liar like 200 Scientologists...............

Anonymous said...

mysterion dabbled in Scientology once. Oh yes. He drank the Kool Aid.

Anonymous said...

Do you guys realize how hilarious a picture this thread and comments give about the whole buddhist zazen thingy? You are supposedly folks who promote "just sitting" and doing your own thing and being compassionate with each other and shit. That sounds awesome. Every time when I try to get in contact with some other people doing this stuff, I run into people telling other people they are DOING IT WRONG and throwing accusations, recommending therapy, and sueing each other.

Gods. I'll just be doing my own thing over in that corner. I have a wall to stare at home.

Pretaville said...

anon said, "Do you guys realize how hilarious a picture this thread and comments give about the whole buddhist zazen thingy?"

You might be talking to only one suppressive personality in a dwindling spiral who is dismissive of buddhism and never sits zazen? Your scenario might be completely wrong.

Or not.

Hal said...

OMG. The Pretaville babbler WAS Mysterion after all. This last comment proves it. Here comes the flood.

Anonymous said...

LMAOROF!

Anonymous said...

LMFAO !!!

Mysterion said...

Anonymous said...
"mysterion dabbled in Scientology once. Oh yes. He drank the Kool Aid."

I did not.

2 people I know from High School did... (circa 1962-1966)

and one from a TV station in Reno where I worked (circa 1973).

and I rescued a neighbor from the cult a few years ago.

Thus, I LIKE "anonymous"

But it's nice for you to be wrong, so continue...

Mysterion said...

Scientology,

Jehovah's Witnesses,

Catholicism,

Pentecostals,

Calvinists,

LOL.

There's no shortage of f*cked up folks here in hell!

Zenleo said...

http://news.yahoo.com/russians-pray-correction-anti-putin-punks-062308383.html

Praying for the Correction of Punks!

I wish someone would dissolve a few more Religious Institutions. You would think they would go away by themselves. I actually read that there may be something in the human DNA that predisposes up to some sort of "Higher Power" belief in our psyche. Maybe it's all a lost cause ehhh?
Cheers
Dale

John Paul Satyr said...

"L'enfer, c'est les autres."

Junior Littleton said...

How many men have facefucked Mysterion?

Anonymous said...

Pretaville; I wish I was, but I know for a fact that people who in fact do diligently sit (well, more diligently than I do anyhow...) participate in this kind of stuff.

Mysterion said...

Dale:

Regarding "higher power." As far as neuroscience defines 'god,' it's a primitive death mechanism wherein the chemistry of the brain makes death less than an unpleasant experience.

When prey is captured by a predator, it often 'surrenders' to the will of god (Islam, if you will...)

The old Roman Empire used this chemical brain mechanism (which is somewhat like heroin addiction) to morph control of the people under the new Roman Empire (e.g. the Holy Roman Empire).

This chemical mechanism goes back to the cave paintings and beyond.

Mechanically religion can be summed up in three words: Grand Mal Epilepsy. also HERE

Neurologist Ramachandran talking about temporal lobe epilepsy and god.

There are exceptions - psychotics. I will not provide a list of names but recent notorious examples abound.

see also PDFs:

St Paul and temporal lobe epilepsy

Sudden religious conversions in temporal lobe epilepsy

More sources HERE

As I mentioned, I went back to grad school (having previously attended in 1971) in 1989 as a hobby while my wife earned her BA. She majored in English while I rejoined Jungian Psychology. We graduated on the same June day in 1993 - her with her BA and me with the M.S. She went on to fetch a Master's in English (all without student loans).

Carl Jung was cool. He, and his immediate followers, explored religions, philosophies, and institutionalized belief systems. The myriad myths of man (e.g. religions) have been on the academic radar for 140+ years but it was Carl Young that brought the discipline into focus and to full fruition.

“As a student of comparative religions, I believe that Buddhism is the most perfect one the world has ever seen. The philosophy of the Buddha, the theory of evolution and the law of Karma were far superior to any other creed.” - Professor Carl Gustav Jung

Even the uneducated expressed opinions in the late 1800s.

Buddhism in Relation to Christianity (1885): Richard Collins

The influence of Buddhism on primitive Christianity (1893). Author: Lillie, Arthur.

Buddhism and Christianity
a parallel and a contrast, being the Croall lecture for 1889-90
by Archibald Scott.

The story of Barlaam and Joasaph : Buddhism & Christianity (1895)
Kenneth Somerled Macdonald
John Morrison
Publisher: Calcutta : Thacker, Spink & Co., 1895.

The Sign of the Cross is another ancient myth - far older than Christianity.

For synchronicity, check out the LDS page on Fu Xi and Nu Wa (Nu Wa becomes Noah is the folklore of the Levant).

It's mostly poorly recycled folklore when you explore religion(s).

Anonymous said...

Does Brad have the authority to dissolve the Mysterion Sangha International?

Hal said...

Did I mention the (Mysterion/Pretaville) flood was coming?

chairman wao said...

Ah it's the republican hick trolls again. They detest all intellectual discourse. Go back to Sac Hal. Go back to Sac.

Mark Foote said...

Thanks for Fu Xi & Nu Wa, Mysterion- beautiful depiction of above as below, below as above, leaving the great mystery that has curtailed the progress of civilization behind the skirt. Egyptian art showed the knot, and the role of the goddesses behind the skirt, but lacks the differentiation of the forces making up the akh. The compass and the square with plumb, rotation and activity on the diagonals generated by the weight of the body.

Dogen at the sound of a mountain stream, Dogen at the sight of blossoms. Where'd he go!

Anonymous said...

Maybe he crawled up yer arse, mate. That's why you can't sit straight.

Harry said...

Hee hee, I know I shouldn't laugh, but that really was quite finely crafted.

Regards,

H.

Anonymous said...

a b c d e f g
h i j k l m n o p
q r s
t u v
w x
y z

10
9
8
7
6
5
4
3
2
&

Lopez Roshi said...

*CUMS in Mysterion's mouth*

Anonymous said...

Hi Jundo !

_()_

Xenu the Magnificent said...

In HIS own voice: "the supreme rula goofs the flute"

and Incident two

Australia Waking up

Will DM go postal?

Mike Rinder

Do you believe?

Jinzang said...

That is so arrogant. Who made you king of correctness? It's none of your fucking business if people want to eat that shit. I don't but IT'S MY CHOICE! We don't need your inpute on every fucking thing!

Sorry you didn't like my choice of metaphor, but if I call an organization "fast food Zen", I don't think anyone will be think I am praising a them for being fast, clean, and efficient. If using this metaphor makes me arrogant, well, I saw it used elsewhere twice tonight, so I've got plenty of company.

On the larger issue, the goal of Buddhism and Zen in particular is liberation from the false concept of ego. Unfortunately, what we're seeing more and more of is "dharma lite", using meditation to make you comfortable with your ego. If you want to use meditation to de-stress and feel more peaceful, you're welcome to try, but that sort of practice can only take you so far.

Buddha said...

ROFLMAO

Anonymous said...

Jinzang: Says you.

Anonymous said...

91

Mysterion said...

Blogger Jinzang said...
"Unfortunately, what we're seeing more and more of is "dharma lite", using meditation to make you comfortable with your ego."

Yep.

It's not about comfort. It's about cognitive dissonance.

A similar 'lite version' corruption took place in Calvinism: "using Christianity to make you comfortable with your greed."

While some Xtians are, in the end, cleaning up their act [pun intended], there is no simple answer.

That is why we recognize perfection where and when it exists. Everything else is just performance art.

Nothing, IMO, sums it up better than

Prospero:
Our revels now are ended.
These our actors,
As I foretold you, were all spirits, and
Are melted into air, into thin air:
And like the baseless fabric of this vision,
The cloud-capp'd tow'rs, the gorgeous palaces,
The solemn temples, the great globe itself,
Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve,
And, like this insubstantial pageant faded,
Leave not a rack behind.
We are such stuff
As dreams are made on; and our little life
Is rounded with a sleep.

The Tempest Act 4, scene 1

- Fr. Bacon

Harry said...

"On the larger issue, the goal of Buddhism and Zen in particular is liberation from the false concept of ego."

That is not the goal of zen or any school of Mahayana Buddhism.

Regards,

Harry.

Anonymous said...

Shut the fuck up, Harry, you pretentious know-it-all.

Mysterion said...

Harry:

Sorry, Theravada was slipping it's ugly ancient upstream head into the pollution of the downstream waters (as in mixture).

It slipped out of its box.

Harry said...

Hi Mysti,

Yes, the simple distinction that is often made by Mahayanist body builders is not very satisfactory at all.

I think the notion of Theravada/ 'hinyana' as solely a vehicle for 'personal liberation' only is very unreliable.

Regards,

Harry.

anon #108 said...

Jinzang wrote: On the larger issue, the goal of Buddhism and Zen in particular is liberation from the false concept of ego...

Do you mean that the goal of Buddhism is to arrive at the opinion that that the concept "ego" is a false concept? Or do you mean the goal is liberation from having a sense of self? Something else? Perhaps liberation from greed, hatred, delusion? I'm never sure what people mean when they say things like "...liberation from ego."

If you want to use meditation to de-stress and feel more peaceful, you're welcome to try, but that sort of practice can only take you so far.

I always thought the goal of Buddhism was to lessen dukkha. "Stress" is a pretty good translation of dukkha.

Anonymous said...

I disagree!

You should keep it together as you have as a lose but interconnected group of independent sanghas.

So keep Dogen Sangha International together and you are the best person to do that.

gassho

Jinzang said...

Me: "On the larger issue, the goal of Buddhism and Zen in particular is liberation from the false concept of ego."

Harry: "That is not the goal of zen or any school of Mahayana Buddhism."


The three marks of existence are that all compounded phenomena are impermanent, all afflicted emotions are suffering, and all phenomena are WITHOUT A SELF (anatman). This is Buddhism 101 stuff.

Harry said...

hi, Jinz.

Yes, but be that as it may, it's not the goal of zen, or any other Mahayana school... which is an equally simple and clarifiable point.

Regards,

Harry.

Harry said...

... besides, I think what Buddhism holds to be the 'self' and the many spurious ideas (and unclarified assumptions) as to what constitutes an 'ego' might be quite different at times.

Regards,

Harry.

Harry said...

...For example, Buddhist teaching sees the self as comprising of the five skandhas, including our physical form.

'The ego' by comparison, in Western thought and assumption, is often held to be just some sort of psychological entity or sense of 'self', 'me', 'I' or some sort of self referential mental structure... and the term is often used negatively speaking in terms of Buddhism or self help or just in common speech.

At any rate, the zen/mahayana goal is not confined to either a personal psychological realisation or any other form of personal redemption.

Regards,

Harry.

anon #108 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Anonymous said...

from what i've read, at nirvana the whole self/other thing goes away and knowing is everywhere. if there is attachment to any single 'point' of view, it's delusion.

apparently we're all deluded here, so the previous statement may be entirely wrong.

anon #108 said...

Jinzang: all phenomena are WITHOUT A SELF (anatman).

Is that what you mean by "the false concept of ego," Jinz? Ego = Atman? I understand atman/self to refer to some kind of permanent, enduring essence; a soul or spirit. And yes, the Buddha suggests there isn't such a thing - not in things or people. And he might be right. I'm not wanting to split hairs, but, like Harry, I don't think that's quite the same thing as "ego". Still...

If that is what you're getting at, then you seem to me to be saying (in my words) "the goal of Buddhism is to arrive at the opinion that that the concept "ego" is a false concept." That would be an opinion, a philosophical view. Fair enough. Buddhism 101, perhaps. But hardly "the goal of Buddhism".

But if you're saying that "liberation from ego" is more than adopting a view, but is something that can be made real for a person, then that sounds like my second option (above): "liberation from having a sense of self," ie having no sense of self-hood/identity. I think such a state stands little chance of being realised by anybody for more than a few moments...however badly someone might value and want such a state and however much time and energy they might devote to achieving it.

(Less dukkha necessarily involves less dukkha for both self and others, of course.)

anon #108 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Blake said...

So would you consider being head of the Sing-a Sangha? As an organization, we love to sing-a about the moon-a and the June-a and the spring-a. We love to sing-a about a sky-a of-a blue-a and a tea-a for-a two-a. We love-a to, we love-a to sing!

Harry said...

BTW, I think the Old Barbarian himself pulled a masterstroke in regards to the Buddhist preoccupation with mental wrangling, 'ego', 'self' and all such notions that we get hung up on from time to time:

Huike said to Bodhidharma, “My mind is anxious. Please pacify it.”

Bodhidharma replied, “Bring me your mind, and I will pacify it.”

Huike said, “Although I’ve sought it, I cannot find it.”

“There,” Bodhidharma replied, “I have pacified your mind.”

... now it was probably some poor chinese chap came up with that chestnut long after the fact, but you know what I mean.

Regards,

Harry.

Anonymous said...

Where is my mind?

Fred said...

"Do you mean that the goal of Buddhism is to arrive at the opinion that that the concept "ego" is a false concept? Or do you mean the goal is liberation from having a sense of self? Something else? Perhaps liberation from greed, hatred, delusion? I'm never sure what people mean when they say things like "...liberation from ego."

The false sense of self that is
yapping away on this board.

Did the Buddha stop yapping when
he realized that which exists
beyond yapping? Who knows.

Why were Buddha, Jesus and Mohamed
men? Because it's bullshit. The
Unnown can be grasped by anyone.
Organized religion is a crock of
shit.

Fred said...

To train and enlighten all things from the self: is delusion; to train and enlighten- the self from all things is enlightenment. Those who enlighten their delusion are Buddhas; those deluded in enlightenment are all-beings. Again there are those who are enlightened: on enlightenment-and those deluded within delusion. When Buddhas are really Buddhas, we need not know our identity with the Buddhas. But we are enlightened Buddhas-and express the Buddha in daily life. When we see objects and hear voices with all our body and mind-and grasp them intimately-it is not a phenomenon like a mirror reflecting form or like a moon reflected on water. When we understand one side, the other side remains in darkness. To study Buddhism is to study the self. To study the self is to forget the self. To forget the self is to be enlightened by all things.

Anonymous said...

organized religion is organized religion and a crock of shit is a crock of shit. your feelings are your feelings.

get it straight fred!

Fred said...

This fiction of ego can not gain
what it wants.It should just want
that which is here in this moment.
There is no suffering because there
is nothing to suffer. A maggot is
meant to crawl through rotting flesh.
Form is transmuted and morphed into
different form. This concept of a
self ego is like a red hot poker in
held in my hands.

If Buddhism had a goal it would be
to see through and transcend this
sense of self ego.

Harry said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Mysterion said...

atman = atman

some want atman = soul

some want atman = ego

I want atman = eggo

that way there's more waffling and plenty of room to make something else that it isn't to begin with - like the "Elvis Waffle."

Harry said...

One problem with not having any organisation (and/or standard) at all is that the spurious might flourish without any sort of check. And, as much as I like to believe it's not true and afford people complete autonomy and dignity, people (me very much included!) do tend to disappear up their own asses from time to time. Even at that, and acknowledging that people really do need to keep an eye out for each other, I'm not sure that a big lumbering institution is ever an appropriate response.

Still, sometimes I wonder which is the worst evil... and I'm sure there's a clever 'middle way' there somewhere.

Regards,

Harry.

Mysterion said...

Try Psych 101 - and I am no Freudian!

ego = ego*

Buddha (Siddhartha Gautama Shakyamuni) may not have been the first psychologist but he was certainly the first noteworthy psychologist.

"Along with this basic analysis of the human predicament as one of suffering, the Buddha gained acute understanding of human psychology and physiology which formed the basis for later philosophical developments of Buddhism as well as the foundation for many advanced meditative practices. Essential to this teaching was the principle of 'no-soul' (atman) or no essence to what we consider the 'self.' " source

*you cannot accurately measure oriental philosophies with an occidental ruler.

Anonymous said...

“Try imagining yourself standing in an empty room. You look around and see only empty space - everywhere. Absolutely nothing occupies that space - except you, standing in the middle of the room. Admiring its emptiness, you forget about yourself. You forget that you occupy a central position in that space. How then can the room be empty? As long as someone remains in the room, it is not truly empty.

When you finally realize that the room can never be truly empty until you depart, that is the moment when that fundamental delusion about your true self disintegrates, and the pure, delusion-free mind arises. “Once the mind has let go of phenomena of every sort, the mind appears supremely empty; but the one who admires the emptiness, who is awestruck by the emptiness, that one still survives.

The self as reference point, which is the essence of all false knowing, remains integrated into the mind’s knowing essence. This self-perspective is the primary delusion. Its presence represents the difference between the subtle emptiness of the radiant mind and the transcendent emptiness of the pure mind, free of all forms of delusion.

Self is the real impediment. As soon as it disintegrates and disappears, no more impediments remain. Transcendent emptiness appears. As in the case of a person in an empty room, we can say that the mind is truly empty only when the self leaves for good. This transcendent emptiness is a total and permanent disengagement that requires no further effort to maintain.

Delusion is an intrinsically blind awareness, masquerading as radiance, clarity and happiness. As such, it is the self ’s ultimate safe haven. But those treasured qualities are all products of subtle causes and conditions. True emptiness occurs only when every single trace of one’s conditioned reality
disappears.

As soon as you turn around and know it for what it is, that false awareness simply disintegrates. Clouding your vision with its splendor, that luminous deception has all along been concealing the mind’s true, natural wonder.

~Ajahn Maha Boowa

(kind of sounds like what you guys have been saying)

REAL practitioner said...

There is no goal to Buddhism. Once you've established a goal you have already fallen into the delusion of dualistic thinking. There is nothing you lack and there is nothing for you to change. Change always happens without you having to push things around. A goal driven mind is a mind that will never be quiet or satisfied. Chatter on then, goaltenders.

Harry said...

Well, Mysti, that points to a big distinction to be made right there I think. Freud's theories have had such an affect on how we consider 'the mind' and 'the self' etc that it bears some clarification around terms i think.

Freud originally saw the ego as operating to a reality principle in that it sort of negotiated to satisfy the unreasoned, unconscious arising selfish id drives while avoiding the lofty, guilt inducing morality of the superego (that's my cartoon version of the theory!)... which is quite in contrast to how we perceive the 'ego' to be when we croak on about it in relation to Buddhism and in popular usage (I'm of the opinion that the term is of very little use in Buddhism, if of any use at all, because nobody seems particularly clear what they mean when they say it).

Even to Freud it was just a term to describe a function of the mind, not some sort of mental organ or entity.

'Ego' from the Latin and Greek before it just means 'I', but it seems to have taken on the baggage of the Western idealist tradition and become associated with a percieved mental/ psychological 'I' or notion of what constitutes a 'self'.

Regards,

Harry.

anon #108 said...

Fred suggests ego is:

The false sense of self that is
yapping away on this board.


and concludes:

If Buddhism had a goal it would be to see through and transcend this sense of self ego.

I look forward to one day hearing from someone who has "seen through and transcended this sense of self ego"...whatever that may mean. On the evidence available so far, I'm not impressed.

And Ajahn Maha Boowa says:

Self is the real impediment. As soon as it disintegrates and disappears, no more impediments remain...This transcendent emptiness is a total and permanent disengagement that requires no further effort to maintain.

I don't believe it.

Zenleo said...

If you have a wireless mouse on your computer, turn it around. (A 180 from it's proper position). Then try using it, you will find out where your mind is zen....errr I mean then.

If you do not have a wireless mouse then you will never understand.

Cheers
Dale
(Thanks for the links myst.)

St. Francis The Talking Mule said...

Unsupported premises.

Logical fallacies.

Deluded Neoplatonism.

Did a malicious virus redirect my browser to the Hardcore Catholic Forum?

Jinzang said...

Yes, I am using ego as a synonym for the self. I know that's not what it means in Freudian psychology, but it's the common sense of the term. I use it because it suggests egotism, and egotism is a result of the sense of self. From the sense of "me" comes "mine" and from that comes all of our attachments. To give an example. if you hear a crash a look out the window and see one car has hit another, you don't get upset. But if it's YOUR car that got hit, you do. The difference between the two cases is egotism.

To bring it back to actual practice. If I ask you to meditate by looking at your thoughts, in your mind there will be a sense of something that is watched and also a watcher. The watcher is ego, or the sense of self. If you meditate for long enough, to the point where there are significant gaps between your thoughts, sooner or later that sense of a watcher will fall away. You will see it for what it is, a mental fiction. That's what I'm referring to as enlightenment, though it's only one step in a very long process.

Jinzang said...

REAL practitioner said... There is no goal to Buddhism.

Yes there is, the liberation of yourself and all sentient beings.

There is nothing you lack and there is nothing for you to change.

Greed, hatred and delusion?

Change always happens without you having to push things around.

Buddha taught all phenomena arise from a cause and cease when their causes cease.

Chatter on then, goaltenders.

Since I'm not a REAL practitioner, what is there for me to do?

Mark Foote said...

Welcome, today on the Hardcore Catholic Forum, we thank (somebody) for The Pixies, and we thank somebody else for news about alien abductions.

Getting to the word of the day:

"Whatever... is material shape, past, future, or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, mean or excellent, or whatever is far or near, (a person), thinking of all this material shape as 'This is not mine, this am I not, this is not my self', sees it thus as it really is by means of perfect wisdom. Whatever is feeling... perception... the habitual tendencies... whatever is consciousness, past, future, or present... (that person), thinking of all this consciousness as 'This is not mine, this am I not, this is not my self', sees it thus as it really is by means of perfect wisdom. (For one) knowing thus, seeing thus, there are no latent conceits that 'I am the doer, mine is the doer' in regard to this consciousness-informed body." (MN III 18-19, Pali Text Society volume 3 pg 68)

As to what is meant by "no latent conceits that 'I am the doer, mine is the doer' in regard to this consciousness-informed body":

"One sage clarified True Mind (Reality) when he saw peach blossoms and another realized the Way when he heard the sound of tile hitting a bamboo. They attained the way through their bodies."

(“Shobogenzo-zuimonki”, sayings recorded by Koun Ejo, translated by Shohaku Okumura, 2-26, pg 107-108, ©2004 Sotoshu Shumucho)

In plain English: if I grasp at the feeling I have, I am no longer waking up and falling asleep, and my ability to feel changes. If what I feel informs the place of occurrence of consciousness, then the ability to feel is my necessity of breath and posture, and I find myself waking up or falling asleep in the midst of my activity.

perfect wisdom, mind that takes place out of the necessity of breath and posture, the place of mind that moves dispelling any latent conceits that "I am the doer, mine is the doer" with regard to the consciousness-informed body" (the body of referred sensation?).

Anonymous said...

D. enigrate
S. lander
I. nsult

can it be dissolved?

Harry said...

"I look forward to one day hearing from someone who has "seen through and transcended this sense of self ego"...whatever that may mean. On the evidence available so far, I'm not impressed."

I tend to concur on that one Mysti,

With all the prattle about Buddhism being about dissolving or transcending the 'ego', and our very normal and real human desires, one might mistake Buddhism for an inhumanly sqeaky clean philosophy of battering ourselves into a state of nothingness. This has happened in zen too of course (I recall the recentish article by the zen teacher who required therapy after being encouraged by his master to 'destroy his ego', or words to that effect).

If someone can't aknowledge that they are at least a bit pissed off about their car being trashed then I'm inclined to think that's it's more to do with a sort of denial, or a type of psychosis, than enlightenment.

Zen is good on this subject too though (in countering a sort of emotionally/intellectually aloof transcendism), and Gudo always pointed that we require a certain amount of desire in order to exist as we do.

Regards,

Harry.

anon #108 said...

Harry quoted this:

"I look forward to one day hearing from someone who has "seen through and transcended this sense of self ego"...whatever that may mean. On the evidence available so far, I'm not impressed."

And then wrote this:

I tend to concur on that one Mysti..."

Maybe you want draw Mysti's attention to that excellent point, H. Or maybe you're confused. What you wrote certainly might confuse others. I wrote it, not him. ME! It's MY work and all the credit accruing from any concurring belongs to ME. OK?

Harry said...

Cheque's in the post, 108.

You have to renounce the sin of personal possesion before you can cash it tho.

Regards,

H.

Anonymous said...

Should Harry ask Jundo to be his Zen teacher?

Harry said...

That black plastic orb is like the big brother I never had.

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Kyle said...

"I look forward to one day hearing from someone who has "seen through and transcended this sense of self ego"...whatever that may mean. On the evidence available so far, I'm not impressed."

If it is worth anything, those who I think have been on the best track have been those who have stated that there is no "ego" to be "transcended." Transcending would kind of lose its meaning and not make very much sense. Those that have stated as much have tended to be also Zen Buddhist masters.

I can understand the empirical method like the given quote, as I share it, however I just wanted to quickly correct this interpretation. Some Buddhists or those that have claimed Buddhism for themselves have said there is something to "realize" to "transcend." That is only as true as it is not true, and some very precious select Buddhists have also said as much. There are diamonds in the rough. ^.^