Monday, December 06, 2010

New Suicide Girls Piece: :Living Simply

OK. I got a new Suicide Girls blog up. It's called Living Simply and you can find it by clicking on the words "Living Simply." How simple is that? And this is the safe-for-work site. No naked boobies or buttocks!

Got a Skype call last night from a friend of mine in Japan. She had just returned from a 5-day Zen retreat in another lineage, which shall remain nameless but rhymes with Barada Basutani. She showed me these big huge bruises on both shoulders from severe beatings with the kiyosaku (stick of discipline). She said they didn't even stop smacking her when she cried. Guys in the zendo were yelling "Mu! Mu! Muuuuuuu!" as they sat. Apparently of her group three people got enlightenment. She was not one of them.

The whole thing sounded intensely ridiculous and even comical. I'm glad I never went to any of those kinds of Zen retreats. I would have rejected it right away. Maybe when I'm not so tired I'll write up a piece on why this kind of practice is so incredibly silly.

For now I'm just baffled.

121 comments:

Anonymous said...

so there harry!

Anonymous said...

there there, harry

Anonymous said...

I mean I want to be the first, because, YOU know, it's just so....so....well, number 1 like and all,

but as soon as I got that deleesh YES! I immediately wished I had deferred to you (to whom it has become synonimous with your name, and how others commenting here identify you (Harry The First)

and then, also wished that I had just abstained and let someone else, if not you, have the fun of it

next time...there's plenty of blogs left in Brad for all regulars to get a crack at it, no?

I must add, I was relieved to burst my privately held hypothesis that you would have Brad call you the moment he pushed 'send' on the blog....
I mean it was uncanny, your long reign at the top

mark said...

could we all please just agree 'close enough dammmmmmiiiittttttt???

mark said...

can we just simply agree, close enough??????

mark said...

oppsss!!!! You can tell, I'm new at this.

mark said...

Now that I've read your whole couple of paragraphs, (sorry about being to excited about leaving a comment to leave that till now), maybe some people need a swat to enable them to accept things right. we's all a different kind of breed, different paths to the same message, right???

john e mumbles said...

I still think there is something wrong with a "safe for work" Suicide Girls, um, er, anything...It's as if Hugh Hefner announced that the next Playboy will feature women in suggestive clothing -no nudes- in order to highlight the "articles."

Hmmnn. Begs the question, I suppose: Does anyone actually read (or whatever, handle?) Playboy magazine anymore? Is it still being published??

Otherwise, sorry about your beat and bruised Zen buddy. Weird scenes inside the goldmine...

RDeWald said...

Odd for an organization that is obstensibly oriented to lay practice.

Anonymous said...

ok,
after being 1rst, 2nd and 3rd I went and read the article.

A very good article, very good indeed. I only have issue with the almost last paragraph:

"Living simply means making the life you have into the life you want to have. It means seeing the ways in which the life you’re living now is exactly what you want, or at least exactly what you need."

I would have worded it: Living simply means making the life you have the life you have yearned to have: you need yearn no longer.
It means seeing the ways in which the life you're living now meets all of your needs (though perhaps not all the wants).

but that's just me, and I'm not quibbling with the excellent article

Anonymous said...

sesshins during rohatsu are known to be very intense, as intense as they ever get It's the last push to get "E"d for this calendar year, so everybody let's go all out for it.
The intensity isn't just for your own "E" When you are in a sesshin with a sangha of folk it is more like "E" lotto--or "E" bingo--everyone is putting all they've got into practice, running to be first for dokusan/sanzen, staying up the latest for yaza ('voluntary' outdoor sitting after all the scheduled sits for the day).

Some of the kyosaku folks are 'generous' with it.
In winter, with more padded clothing on, the hits usually are harder to get through the layers than in summer.
But some just wield a heavy stick. I am sorry for your friend and would have suggested, once she knew about the heavy-handedness, to have put on extra layers to absorb some of the blow.
Even now, just remembering heavy hitters I had experienced during a rinzai seshhin in Japan ( rhymes with Frodo La Bama) the hair on my neck stands up and the skin of my scalp tightens.
In this way, just one person getting 'encouragement' with the kyosaku gives encouragement by proxy to all!

I'm so glad Nishijima Roshi showed you a different approach. Other's might think though, that in sparing the rod some of his dharma children were spoiled...

Anonymous said...

Anon 8:10

after re-reading Brad's wording and mine; I do like Brad's better in conveying the thought.

sorry

Hare said...

I think I will never understand the "first post" impulse. It's beyond me why anyone would ever think there's any value in getting your name at the top of a list of comments. Especially if you don't contribute anything interesting to the discussion. I'm bitter.

The Funk In Your Bunk said...

Whatever, dude. If that girl had been one of the lucky three to get enlightenment then she would be singing a different tune. But because she didn't, she complains about the bruises and the tears. In the same way Brad Warner compensates for his lack of real insight by writing frivolous Zen books that make for an entertaining bathroom read but nothing more. Can you not see that he is just another dime-a dozen-Zen priest who was blessed with gift of gab. Sadly, the gift of gab does not do one any good in the practice of Zen.

"Genpo is evil." "Satori is bunk"-- This is all very fun and entertaining, but once you get tired of the internet bullshit and the Pop Zen books, then it's time to get down to the actual practice of Zen, something that Brad only does on occasion now to maintain his credibility. My suggestion to all of you is start practicing. Start practicing now. The lineage doesn't matter, all that matters is your sincerity.

Abandon this trifling bullshit once and for all. It's getting you nowhere and you know it.

Brad Warner is bunk

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Anonymous said...

I think one can live simply wherever they wish. I really don't think rich are necessarily dominated by hedonism. I've seen that material trappings will work their hardest on the poor. Living simply in terms of being anti-materialism is going to be a failure because you are pouring gasoline on the fire so to speak. In fact i see a heightened materialistic dependency in people who move more towards an aesthetic type. Which is what we're talking about and we know Buddha's experience there.

I am also not sure living simply can be equated living spiritually.

anon #108 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Anonymous said...

I have heard translations of keisaku and kyosaku as 'compassion stick' and 'awakening stick' respectively

never never never is it used as a form of 'discipline'
There is no punishment in the practice of use of the kyosaku--and when you think about it, why would there be--haven't you already been punished enough sitting there facing the wall since forever?

I have found 'proper' use of the kyosaku (hits that don't leave bruises for example), as very beneficial: pain in the shoulders from days of sesshin is relieved, blood flow, circulation is increased. Drowsiness disappears, awareness is heightened, etc. I actually wish I encountered more places using it as part of the practice. What one teacher explained to me (and he was from a lineage where the kyosaku was used) the disuse was because it was one less thing to get attached to.
I do believe he was right on this point.

It also requires another person. Practice which relies on another person in this way takes one away from realizing fully practice 'by alone,' our own responsibility for the care of and continuance of our own practice.

buddy said...

Was reading some Yasutani last night, as 2 of my teachers studied with him (but neither ordained by him). His descriptions of shikan taza were very samurai, stuff like 'sit as a warrior who is about to face an enemy'. With all the documentations of his Imperialist, anti-semitic sentiments (not just during WW2 but as late as the '70s) he's certainly hard to take. http://www.tricycle.com/feature/yasutani-roshi-hardest-koan (the sometimes one-sided approach of Brian Victoria balanced by accounts from Yasutani's students).

As for the kiyosaku, a number of places (incl. here in canada) use it much more gently, not as an impetus for instant enlightenment, but to relieve tension by striking a pressure point, like shiatsu. And it's only given if asked for. Not my cup of tea, although some people swear by it.

My favourite stick story is from a few decades ago about this travelling monk who was doing a sesshin in a different lineage. He knew nothing of the kiyosaku, and after a few days of getting whacked he got pissed off enough to jump up and grab the stick from the attendant. It turns out they both knew martial arts, so a fight broke out in the zendo!

buddy said...

anon at 11:04- I wrote my comment before yours was posted, hence the lack of acknowledgement of our similar points.

Anonymous said...

Got a Skype call last night from a friend of mine in Japan. She had just returned from a 5-day Zen retreat in another lineage, which shall remain nameless but rhymes with Barada Basutani. She showed me these big huge bruises on both shoulders from severe beatings with the kiyosaku (stick of discipline). She said they didn't even stop smacking her when she cried. Guys in the zendo were yelling "Mu! Mu! Muuuuuuu!" as they sat. Apparently of her group three people got enlightenment. She was not one of them.

The whole thing sounded intensely ridiculous and even comical. I'm glad I never went to any of those kinds of Zen retreats. I would have rejected it right away. Maybe when I'm not so tired I'll write up a piece on why this kind of practice is so incredibly silly.

For now I'm just baffled.


Ridiculous and comical? Are you kidding? Maybe you should try thinking once in a while instead of just staring at the wall. Why do people tolerate that kind of violence? Why doesn't she press charges? Surely it must be possible, even in Japan.

Mumon said...

Whoever was using the kyosaku was incompetent.

Although 75% of what chiropracters say is total woo (and I have a close relative that's one - makes for amusing family get-togethers) they do know how to fix a back that's out of whack.

A good whatever-they-call-the-guy-wielding-the-kyosaku can get you "right there" and loosen up any tightness in the back and/or eliminate pain elsewhere in your body.

You might even say it balances the autonomous nervous system.

But I wouldn't say that.

Of course, my lineage ain't that one, though I did for a while go to retreats in them.

They were OK.

But I've had better.

Anonymous said...

She got what she had coming.

Your posts on karma and the like make that very clear.

PA said...

Excellent stuff, Brad. It's not always simple to find a simple life though,eh. I know quite a few people who are trying to find that middle-way of a simple life and it takes a lot of organisation and thought and hard work - like yourself, I guess.
I'm in though :-)
That kiyosaku story is horrible. In the temple I went to in Japan it was just a gentle whack which felt like a sudden 'shoulder massage'. None of this whacking stuff - that's just weird.

tattoozen said...

Some people just cant get their jollies from a "religion" if their masochism doesnt get a little tickle now and then.

Its the old "you must suffer for your art" thing,since zen isnt so big on self loathing and martyrdom the folks who seem to thrive on s-and-m-esque endorphin rushes need something to make them feel like they are really "doing something".

This is just my opinion, please dont hit me with the stick.

Brad Warner said...

You tell 'em Funk In Your Bunk!

That Brad Warner, he's so full of shit his eyes are brown!

Anonymous said...

Hi Bradley,

there's one thing about Dogen-Sangha that I don't get and I wonder why this is. Maybe someone can enlighten me :)

I've been practicing Soto-Zen for many years now and it doesn't matter if you check out teachings of Kodo Sawaki, his students like Taisen Deshimaru and Uchiyama Roshi or Shunryu Suzuki and his followers or the students of Deshimaru...all Soto-Zen guys I've read/heard/seen talk about that when you practice Zazen you should breath deeply abdominal and "regulate your breath". Not forcing but like you pay some attention to your posture, do the same with your breath when you notice it got very shallow.

Same is true for Dogen who wrote in Eihei Koroku that we should breath from the tanden (lower abdomen).

Also anyone who ever sit thru a long sesshin I think somehow noticed that it goes a lot easier if you breath deeply from the abdomen and ground yourself that way. In some way I think it's pretty much necessary to sit upright without too much muscle strength.

Now for some reason though Dogen-Sangha insists on not doing so and just says to breath thru the nose. I really wonder why this is the case, it doesn't make any sense to me. Do you really sit Zazen without breathing abdominally and somehow relaxing into that "grounding"? Brad? Nishijima?

I mean maybe you do so automatically like pretty much anyone who's been doing this for many years...do you?

Let me know :)

Take care,

Danny

Anonymous said...

"At Tuesday's sangha meeting, I broke the kyosaku. It's the first time I've ever done that. I think that means Shogen, who was on the receiving end of it, owes me a bottle of sake."

Barry Graham 22 01 2009

anon #108 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
anon #108 said...

Hi Danny,

I've (only) been taught by Mike Luetchford, one of Nishijima's first Western students.

From what I've read and heard, breathing from the hara sounds to me like plain old diaphragmatic breathing, just as I was taught by my flute teachers. IME, it occurs naturally when we're relaxed and not consciously monitoring our breathing - sleeping people breathe from the diaphragm (not gasping from the chest). Chest-gasping is what folks often do when they're asked to "take a deep breath"; they make a conscious effort only to find it exhausts them and doesn't last very long.

So

1) There's no need to make yourself breathe from the hara; it will happen naturally as you settle.

2) Concentrating on breathing is seen by Dogen Sangha types as an unnecessary and undesirable effort/attempt to control/direct with the mind, rather than allow mind/body. Very bad. Very very bad indeed ;)

That's my understanding.

captcha = defib
2nd time round captcha = flucker

Glen said...

I think it is awful some of the stuff that happens in Zen. The book Eat Sleep Sit is a shining example. From what i can gather, the Buddha was against silly things like sitting in zazen, seiza all day so that you cant walk and wacking people with sticks. Punching and kicking them because they make a 'mistake'...It's insane. There seems to be two extremes in Buddhism right now (and perhaps always) theres the people who present and practice in such a way that it's just hippy dippy self help, or it's tough guy time ''sit till you die, and if you want some help at all meet my fists, im going to beat your delusions out of you and fill you with mine!''

Harry said...

Good article on suicide girls, Brad.

Regards,

H.

proulx michel said...

wrote:

From what I've read and heard, breathing from the hara sounds to me like plain old diaphragmatic breathing, just as I was taught by my flute teachers. (...) - sleeping people breathe from the diaphragm (...)

1) There's no need to make yourself breathe from the hara; it will happen naturally as you settle.

2) Concentrating on breathing is seen by Dogen Sangha types as an unnecessary and undesirable effort (...) Very very bad indeed ;) Anon #


I completely agree.

The Funk In Your Bunk said...

Brad, not even your self-deprecation is sincere. And also, your books are not very good. So there.

Anonymous said...

wrote:

From what I've read and heard, breathing from the hara sounds to me like plain old diaphragmatic breathing, just as I was taught by my flute teachers. (...) - sleeping people breathe from the diaphragm (...)

1) There's no need to make yourself breathe from the hara; it will happen naturally as you settle.

2) Concentrating on breathing is seen by Dogen Sangha types as an unnecessary and undesirable effort (...) Very very bad indeed ;)


Well for me personally I think it's just part of Zazen and I've seen a lot of people who sit zazen for a long time and still don't do it naturally, simply because their bodies forgot how to do it. There it helps to just pay as much attention to it as to your posture. In fact somehow I think it's part of your posture.

Now concentrating on the breath is a completely different thing than actually just breathing abdominally like you sit upright or hold your hands in a specific position. For me that would be no shikantaza anymore.

Danny

The Funk In Your Bunk said...

Your "music" sucks.

Mysterion said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
proulx michel said...

Danny wrote:

Now concentrating on the breath is a completely different thing than actually just breathing abdominally like you sit upright or hold your hands in a specific position. For me that would be no shikantaza anymore.

Actually, what helps is reclining just as if to take a nap. When one is completely relaxed, one may observe the belly going up and down with the breathing. One then tries to reproduce this consciously at any moment of the day, in the tram/bus/train, in the queue at the post office/doctor's/dentist's or whatever, walking and even sitting. Sitting upright in chairs also helps.
So, when you're down sitting in zazen, it may finally come naturally.

Anonymous Bob said...

Rap News 5

Good shit!

anon #108 said...

Danny, Danny, Danny -

You're doing it ALL WRONG, son!

(JK)

Anonymous said...

The Swedish Association of Christian Social Democrats has received criticism for its cooperation with various alleged islamist and antisemitic groups and people. In November 2005 the organization together with the Social Democratic Students of Sweden and the Muslim Council of Sweden invited the Palestinian-British academic Azzam Tamimi to hold a speech at a seminar at the Stockholm Mosque entitled Islam and Democratic Development. Tamimi has referred to Israel as a "cancer" and expressed support for the violent struggle of Hamas and Hizbollah against Israel. - Source, Wikipedia.

Newzglobe.com claim to have been in contact with the people around Anna Ardin whose name has spread like wildfire in the Swedish blogosphere the past few days. They specifically identify Ardin as the one who filed the police complaint against Julian Assange, describing her as the political secretary of the Swedish 'Brotherhood Movement', a fringe group around Sweden's social democrats with decidedly 'cultish' leanings.

The Swedish Association of Christian Social Democrats (more commonly known as the Brotherhood movement, or Broderskapsrörelsen) has fixated on Israel over the last six years for a reason, The Brotherhood movement is a Swedish Nazi organization.

http://rixstep.com/1/20100823,00.shtml

Anonymous said...

yes, yes, brad. we all know. Zen that uses a kyosaku or focuses on satori or uses koans is all silly and comical. Only your zen is real, true zen. We've heard it all ad-nauseum.

The Funk In Your Bunk said...

And how's that begging for online donations thing going, Brad?

The Funk In Your Bunk said...

"yes, yes, brad. we all know. Zen that uses a kyosaku or focuses on satori or uses koans is all silly and comical. Only your zen is real, true zen. We've heard it all ad-nauseum."

But no, anonymous, haven't you heard? Brad's "friend" is the one who brought this conversation out; not Brad! His poor friend from another country who you're just gonna have to believe exists and told Brad all of this awful stuff! Brad is just reporting the facts as they exist.

faceball said...

Hey Funk, What's with all the angst? There are other blogs to read if you don't like this one.

Mr. Reee said...

"Abandon this trifling bullshit once and for all. It's getting you nowhere and you know it. ..."

I didn't know I was supposed to be going anywhere.

Will they have chocolate there?

Anonymous said...

Interesting to note out of all the various comments/observations/contributions being made here Brad only remarks on the color of his ego...
Sad, that
Why, take the time for such nonsense?
Maybe NY is already having an influence on you?
Oh, yeah. Yeah! Sez who? Sez me! Wanna make somthin' outta nuttin'? Emptiness and form!
Alright youse! You can empty and form this! (strikes wildly with kyosaku)

worin: I kid you not

Anonymous said...

Have Jundo and Taigu been totally expunged from Shambhala Sunspace?

Anonymous said...

Pah you pussies just don't get it.

REAL ZEN is like that. You get wacked all the time, shouted at you and you sit till your arm falls off!

Do you really think you'll get englightened doing your wellness-zen stuff? Look at Bodhidharma and his follower...they did some serious shit to get real enlightenment.

John C said...

Hey Funk, I read a copy of Hardcore Zen four years ago and I've been sitting on zafus and staring at walls ever since. Go figure! I've since read and enjoyed books by Uchiyama, Katagiri, Maezumi, Suzuki, Hagen, etc. and still return to HZ and SDASU over and over again. I've handed out copies to friends who have also connected with these books. Maybe it just comes down to different strokes (including the kyosaku) for different folks. I don't see crawling around on all fours yelling "MU!" even to "gain" enlightenment. Try reading them a couple more times, because it seems those books do convey something about this practice, just don't ask me what in particular.

Anonymous said...

Anna Ardin is a notorious radical feminist - but in a sense not necessarily known much outside Sweden*. Feminism in some circles focuses on how men achieve social dominance through sex. Many of these Swedish radical feminists are militant lesbians who use fabricated stories of sexual harassment in an attempt to 'transform' society.One, so far unconfirmed by others, source says that Ms Ardin filed sexual harassment charges against her own student, this for sending an SMS during her lecture and thus displaying his male dominance. And others add that Ardin ardently believes the patriarchal aspect of Western society is only held in place by the male's ability to rape women. An interesting view, wouldn't you agree' Besides belonging to this peculiar brand of feminism, Anna Arden is the political secretary and press officer of the Swedish "Brotherhood Movement," a group of Christians from the Social Democratic Party controversial for inviting anti-Semitic speakers to the country.

*They want men to sit down while urinating. This demand comes partly from concerns about hygiene -- avoiding the splash factor -- but, as Jasper Gerard reports in the English magazine The Spectator, "more crucially because a man standing up to urinate is deemed to be triumphing in his masculinity, and by extension, degrading women." One argument is that if women can't do it, then men shouldn't either. Another is that standing upright while relieving oneself is "a nasty macho gesture," suggestive of male violence.

Jared said...

"They want men to sit down while urinating. This demand comes partly from concerns about hygiene -- avoiding the splash factor -- but, as Jasper Gerard reports in the English magazine The Spectator, "more crucially because a man standing up to urinate is deemed to be triumphing in his masculinity, and by extension, degrading women." One argument is that if women can't do it, then men shouldn't either. Another is that standing upright while relieving oneself is "a nasty macho gesture," suggestive of male violence."

I'm digging this Swedish Christianity/Politics trolling way more than the Barry Graham stuff...

Onan said...

I looked and looked, but I couldn't find a new Suicide Girls "piece" -looks like the same old SG pieces to me. How many tats can a young man swallow?

Mumbles: I still subscribe to Playboy, I love perusing the air-brushed unreal female form in 2-dimensional format.

Anonymous said...

Rap News rocks!

Thanks, Anonymous Bob!

Here's some operatic propaganda
right back atchya!

Anonymous said...

Wake up and smell the fascism.

Anonymous said...

I want to report suspicious activity...

There are a whole bunch of Americans with guns
and explosive devices murdering people in Iraq
and Afghanistan and some people behind the scenes
inciting others to do the same. Ms. Napolitano,
please forward this information to the proper
authorities. Thank you.

Anonymous said...

Party like it's 1984.

Anonymous said...

Welcome to Walmart.

Anonymous said...

Officer! There's a weirdo over there
with a mohawk and godzilla shirt
sitting and staring at a a wall!

Anonymous said...

Ve have vays ov dealing vith refuseniks.

Anonymous said...

Hit me with a stick and i'll show you your face before your father was born submitting to a choke hold. I would never agree to be hit, and if there was a mistake the man wielding the stick would be very very sorry. You hit me, I hit back.

How's that for some serious hardcore shit.

Tell your friend to grow a spine, Zen isn't a S&M parlor if she wants to let a bunch of dudes whip her i'm sure she could make better money.

Gort said...

Those silly, comical people in the basutani line's sesshin is 10 hours of zazen per day, 7 days. Typical daily zazen is between 2 and 3 hours. Keisoku is only administered if requested and anyone is free to request that they not be hit at all. The focus on Mu and shouting, etc. is pretty common in many rinzai groups too. In all my years of practice with this group I've yet to see any one being bruised or hurt by the stick. What do you suppose is the real source of this incessant need to put-down other sects, groups, teachers and individusls while proclaiming the superiority of MY way? Why do any of us compare ourselves and denigrate others? Don't we feel better inside? It temporarily allays our own insecurity and feelings of inadequacy. If he's a total shit, I must be ok. If that teacher is a scumbag, I'm great. If that group is silly and comical, mine must be serious and real. There's is crap zen, mine is true zen.

Anonymous said...

Catholics molest the weak in plain sight, Zen assaults the weak in the open. All to make us stronger.

Pass on the kyosaku, another ignorant person can become its victim.

anonymous anonymous said...

Is hysterion really Terrance Moonseed?

captcha follyes

Brad Warner said...

As for the diaphragmic breathing thing, I haven't heard too many teachers recommend that. I can't recall zazen being taught that way by anyone at Great Sky or San Francisco Zen Center. At least not when I've been around. So I don't think it's as universal as all that.

All Dogen says in Fukan Zazengi is, "Breathe softly through the nose, and after settling the physical posture, take one deep breath and sway the body left and right."

It's been my experience that deep breathing will come about spontaneously if you keep good posture.

dirty sanchez said...

Brad, Did Nishijima ever mention the 'hara'?

Brad Warner said...

I never heard Nishijima say anything about the hara, except once he responded to someone who asked about "keeping the mind in the hara" to say he thought that was contrary to Dogen's instructions about zazen.

Anonymous said...

The hara... the hara...

Mysterion said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
anonymous anonymous said...

I've already decided hysterion.. You are Terrance Moonseed.

OsamaVanHalen said...

Hara Krishna!
Hara Krishna!
Krishna Krishna!
Hara hara!

Hara Ramen!
Hara Ramen!
Ramen Ramen!
Hara Hara!

If that doesn't get you to a magical state of enlightenment/nirvana/satori/kensho/samadhi try "Puddi puddi."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9sEI1AUFJKw

Damion said...

I apologize in advance for not having read most of the posts on this topic of stick discipline, so please forgive me if I have added a post someone has already covered.

Personally, I find it ridiculous that anyone could defend this sort of action. I'm not talking about a firm "whack", but anything that could potentially cause brusing on your shoulders IS excessive force! I practice MMA (mixed martial arts) and am very familiar with bruising and how much force it takes to cause them. To receive bruises on your shoulders is no easy matter. That takes force.

To suggest that someone should "add more layers" is just plain sad. Noone should have to add more layers unless it's just cold outside....period. It is this sort of extremism that turns me off to any practice and shows it to be what it really is. A gimmick.

Just my two cents. Slaughter my comments now if it does ya well.

Anonymous said...

Contrary to Dogen's instructions? OMG! NO!
It can't be real zen if Dogen didn't say it.
Ya know, I have no problem with Gudo or Brad saying 'that isn't the way we practice in our lineage' or 'we do not teach that in our sect' etc. But to suggest that other teachers and approaches to zen aren't real zen or are silly and comical, mistaken, wrong and so on reveals more about the person saying such things than what is being described.

Anonymous said...

Pay attention to your breath. Don't try to control it, just be aware of it. Be aware of breathing in, and be aware of breathing out. Be aware that a time will come when you will breathe out and will not breathe in again. Something will end at that point. What is it?

Barry Graham Nov 10 26

Anonymous said...

The Shameful Attacks on Julian Assange

anon #108 said...

Having been insecure, immature, lazy and fearful all my life*, my material circumstances have always been pretty modest. In that sense I've always lived 'a simple life'. Born lucky :)

So I wholly agree with Brad that Zen/Buddhism demands a moderate degree of austerity.

But I wonder: Is it more difficult to pursue the truth/find contentment if your time and energy is taken up with pursuing, acquiring and looking after things and people? Traditionally, Buddhism has taught so. Would modern family men (Harry, Uku...) and women disagree...and care to comment?

* also confident, industrious, brave and bold.

anon #108 said...

Hi Anon @ 7.16am,

Contrary to Dogen's instructions? OMG! NO! It can't be real zen if Dogen didn't say it.

Brad was asked by dirty sanchez, "Brad, Did Nishijima ever mention the 'hara'?" Brad reported his recollection of what Gudo had said about it. As you "have no problem with Gudo or Brad saying 'that isn't the way we practice in our lineage' or 'we do not teach that in our sect' etc," Brad's reply shouldn't bother you one jot.

As for Brad finding the Kyosaku incident "intensely ridiculous and even comical" and the practice " so incredibly silly"... well, that's the way Bradley feels. Whatcha gonnna do?

So it turns out that Brad didn't "suggest that other teachers and approaches to zen aren't real zen", and he certainly didn't say they were "mistaken, wrong" (not yet - he may do shortly ;)).

There IS a difference between expressing a personal reaction to another approach and condemning it as *not real Zen*. I think you got it all mixed up.

Harry said...

Hi 108,

"Is it more difficult to pursue the truth/find contentment if your time and energy is taken up with pursuing, acquiring and looking after things and people?"

A: Yes...

Being a 'person in the marketplace', a person in the world, is not the easier option as far as I can see... which may not be very far at all.

Being at sesshin, for example, is much easier, much more ordered, I'm only responsible for my self really. I'm sure that, long-term, it brings its own sets of problems, but I wouldn't have any experience of that.

... And, of course, there is the ideal that the bodhisattva is equally balanced and serene in the blissful heavens of remote mountain retreats or the hells of family conflict and work related stress... but, personally, I can't say I'm ready to swallow that one yet.

Regards,

Harry.

anon #108 said...

Thanks, Harry.

merciless said...

"But I wonder: Is it more difficult to pursue the truth/find contentment if your time and energy is taken up with pursuing, acquiring and looking after things and people?"

Pursuing, acquiring and looking after things and people could be just the places to find t&c. But it does seem easier for an American to fit in an airline seat than for a rich man to gain enlightenment.

merciless said...

Brad.. In your last hczp, you said that sometimes sadism is compassion. I liked that! Can you expand on that further?

anon #108 said...

Edit to my footnote @8.13am:

...It's annoying me that I didn't get the correlatives right. I meant to say:

*also confident, precocious, industrious and brave.

See what I did there?

Anonymous said...

Well talking about Dogen and Breathing, here's what he had to say about it:


Dogen Zenji said in The collection of Dogen Zenji's formal speeches and poems (Eihei-koroku), vol. 5:

In our zazen, it is of primary importance to sit in the correct posture. Then, regulate the breathing and calm down. In Hinayana, there are two elementary ways (of beginner's practice): one is to count the breaths, and the other is to contemplate the impurity (of the body). In other words, a practitioner of Hinayana regulates his breathing by counting the breaths. The practice of the Buddha-ancestors, however, is completely different from the way of Hinayana. An ancestral teacher has said, “It is better to have the mind of a wily fox than to follow the way of Hinayana self-control.” Two of the Hinayana schools (studied) in Japan today are the precept school (Shibunritsu) and the school based on Abhidharma-kosa (Kusha).

There is also the Mahayana way of regulating breathing. That is, knowing that a long breath is long and that a short one is short. The breath reaches the tanden and leaves from there. Although the exhalation and inhalation are different, they both pass through the tanden. When you breathe abdominally, it is easy to become aware of the transciency (of life), and to harmonize the mind.

My late teacher Tendo said, “The inhaled breath reaches the tanden; however, it is not that this breath comes from somewhere. For that reason, it is neither short nor long. The exhaled breath leaves from the tanden; however, it is not possible to say where this breath goes. For that reason, it is neither long nor short”. My teacher explained it in that way, and if someone were to ask me how to harmonize one's breathing, I would reply in this way: although it is not Mahayana, it is different from Hinayana; though it is not Hinayana, it is different from Mahayana. And if questioned further regarding what it is ultimately, I would respond that inhaling or exhaling are neither long nor short.



So at the end, how can you say Dogen didn't recomment to regulate the breath and to breath abdominally?? For me he clearly said that and it's also a scientific fact that breathing deeply has a very strong impact on your nervous system. Of course posture has, too. But at the end if you breath correctly you'll have a much better time coming thru a sesshin.

Danny

anon #108 said...

Damn. I wrote:

As for Brad finding the Kyosaku incident "intensely ridiculous and even comical" and the practice " so incredibly silly"...

Much more likely Brad found the "muuuuuuing" silly.

OK. I think that's all the edits. Thank you.

Anonymous said...

"There IS a difference between expressing a personal reaction to another approach and condemning it as *not real Zen*. I think you got it all mixed up"

And I think you should read Brad's (past) articles more carefully.

anon #108 said...

Hi Danny,

So at the end, how can you say Dogen didn't recomment to regulate the breath and to breath abdominally?

(Not guilty. Brad? pm?).

Dogen's dead. He wrote in Japanese. And he ain't the boss of me.

Mind you, even in English he appears to describe what he calls the Hinayana teaching and the Mahayana teaching, and then gives his own:

"...if someone were to ask me how to harmonize one's breathing, I would reply in this way: although it is not Mahayana, it is different from Hinayana; though it is not Hinayana, it is different from Mahayana. And if questioned further regarding what it is ultimately, I would respond that inhaling or exhaling are neither long nor short.

I wonder what that means?

anon #108 said...

And I think you should read Brad's (past) articles more carefully.

Fair enough, Anon (not that I'm going back to re-read them all). If Brad has said that other approaches to Zen are wrong then he's wrong.

Anonymous said...

"I wonder what that means?"

He means it's nothing to worry our pretty little heads about. Are we going to forget to breathe? Not likely. If we took a long/short breath it must have been because we needed a long/short breath.

gniz said...

Answering Anon 108s question about having things and families to look after as it relates to practice...

Well I can't answer as a Buddhist because I aint one. BUT, I can answer as a meditator. I feel my meditation nowadays is much more balanced in with all of life because I have other things in my life. I feel like focusing all of my mental energy on meditation, when I did so, was unhealthy.

Now this is coming from someone who believes in a moment to moment practice, so I dont by any means think that meditation is just something to be done 5 minutes a day or even 1 hour a day and let go of.

But even if I attempt to bring this practice into every waking moment (which I do), I still think it helps to put it in context with other things like loving and caring for my wife, my dog, and dealing with various life responsibilities.

Personally I am sure there is a place for monastics but I think that could be a very stunted practice with little real world application. If you need to be holed up in a monastery to do your practice then that isn't much of a practice at all, imo.

gniz said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
La Duesseldorf said...

Brad Warner is good! He is following the words of Dogen. Doing what the words say. And by doing so he is right! This is because he is saying so. When will the Rinzai Idiots get this???

Dalai Lama said...

Ugh, Those fucking Rinzai idiots.. Don't get me started.

Captcha - hymeter

anon #108 said...

For the record -

"Fair enough, Anon...If Brad has said that other approaches to Zen are wrong then he's wrong."

I wrote that. Perhaps it isn't obvious that I was being a sarcastic, ironic smart-arse.

Show me where Brad has ever seriously insisted that only Dogen is right and all other practices are wrong.

Zeb said...

There is talk now about Assange being extradited by the Brits to America. If that happens he'll be imprisoned for years as a terrorist under the Patriot Act. My God, what has happened to the Free world?

gniz said...

Hey Anon 108,

I have a detailed post dedicated to you on my blog at this very moment...

As for the comment that Brad doesn't ever insist his version of Zen is the only way--I believe he has tactfully stated that in his experience it is the only way.

And that he can't speak to other styles, but I think he has said variations of it in ways that can come across as less than open-minded (for instance his dismissal of mindfulness and so forth).

I am too lazy to find exact words but trust me, there are many examples of them...

gniz said...

Okay, I take it back, Anon #108. I'm not too lazy. Brad wrote a post a ways back called "Mindfulness Schmindfulness" (May 25, 2008) which says in part:

"I've been saying lately that I want to destroy the whole cult of mindfulness that's grown up in Buddhism these days. As Nishijima points out, the word "mindfulness" has come to mean getting deeper and deeper into your own head and that's not Buddhism at all."

Now, you can argue that he really was going after the particular way that mindfulness has been interpreted by the new agers and so forth.

But the fact remains that Brad often skewers such things, and he has often commented that he thinks mindfulness is not helpful nor possible (as have you yourself by the way).

Whether or not he is saying his way is the only way, I think it fair that people might come to that conclusion based on the style Brad writes.

anon #108 said...

A detailed post...dedicated to me you say? I'm too scared to look, Gniz.

I'm not sure why I so often rush to Brad's defence, but I really think (hope?) it's more to do with what I see as misunderstanding of what he means than anything to do with my self-identification with Dogen Sangha. Although there is a bit of that for sure (I cringe a little).

Yes, I'm guilty of suggesting to you that your way might not "work", and I have wondered why I do that...why we all do it. Each of us is trying to work out our own way and we usually do it in opposition to some other way we perceive as "wrong" for us. But it really doesn't matter what Brad, or any of us thinks, does it. We can only deceive ourselves.

I'll take a peek at your new post as soon as The Apprentice finishes on telly.


....Fair dos for finding a relevant Brad quote...

I think it fair that people might come to that conclusion based on the style Brad writes.

Conceded.

Anonymous said...

Damien:

You objected to my suggestion to 'add more layers.'
Mine was a practical suggestion:

you go to a 7 day, 8 day, 10 day sesshin. it is a rohatsu sesshin. You may (or may not) know that sometimes use of the kyosaku is 'by request' and sometimes it is not.

You learn over the course of the sesshin which people weilding the kyosaku have what kind of touch--some are more heavy handed than others--
you learn to 'request' only when you really 'need' the kyosaku. You learn not to request from those you find to not be helpful to you.
You don't know until after you have experienced the particular person's approach to the kyosaku.

Sometimes you don't gots no choice: the roshi has the kyosaku and everybody attending is on the receiving end of it--whether you wanted to request it or not--
Again THIS IS NOT PUNISHMENT
But it is easy, with our own various cultural backgrounds and differences in the practice of corporeal punishment in our families (hells bells--just growing up with siblings!) or whether we have had exposure to military training, gang member initiations, (yeah, I mean your very own homies), nights spent slamdancing (remember all that fun?) or spent at 'fight club'... (ok, so it was a movie) there is going to be a reverberation through our being when sensation (kyosaku) gives rise to memories of experiences of long ago and far away in addition to the return of blood flow and relief of pain in the shoulders, and getting rid of drowsiness.


Most places show you how to receive the kyosaku:
make it your business to know the correct posture to best be in good position to receive the kyosaku hit (ie you do not want your ear involved nor the top of your shoulder. Have someone show you so that you clearly understand. Sometimes the person using the kyosaku will touch the place that will receive the hit so that you know where it will be landing.
If that spot is not good: now is your chance to shift position.


So ok--you've done all that--and you can't avoid a certain one or two persons whom you would prefer not to receive 'encouragement' from. But you don't want to leave the sesshin and you don't feel it something you need to bring to the attention of the person heading the sesshin: just put on some padding: no different than a kid slipping a book down their pants before getting caned--and yet totally different--because the kyosaku is not punishment!

Anonymous said...

Damien:

You objected to my suggestion to 'add more layers.'
Mine was a practical suggestion:

you go to a 7 day, 8 day, 10 day sesshin. it is a rohatsu sesshin. You may (or may not) know that sometimes use of the kyosaku is 'by request' and sometimes it is not.

You learn over the course of the sesshin which people weilding the kyosaku have what kind of touch--some are more heavy handed than others--
you learn to 'request' only when you really 'need' the kyosaku. You learn not to request from those you find to not be helpful to you.
You don't know until after you have experienced the particular person's approach to the kyosaku.

Sometimes you don't gots no choice: the roshi has the kyosaku and everybody attending is on the receiving end of it--whether you wanted to request it or not--
Again THIS IS NOT PUNISHMENT
But it is easy, with our own various cultural backgrounds and differences in the practice of corporeal punishment in our families (hells bells--just growing up with siblings!) or whether we have had exposure to military training, gang member initiations, (yeah, I mean your very own homies), nights spent slamdancing (remember all that fun?) or spent at 'fight club'... (ok, so it was a movie) there is going to be a reverberation through our being when sensation (kyosaku) gives rise to memories of experiences of long ago and far away in addition to the return of blood flow and relief of pain in the shoulders, and getting rid of drowsiness.


Most places show you how to receive the kyosaku:
make it your business to know the correct posture to best be in good position to receive the kyosaku hit (ie you do not want your ear involved nor the top of your shoulder. Have someone show you so that you clearly understand. Sometimes the person using the kyosaku will touch the place that will receive the hit so that you know where it will be landing.
If that spot is not good: now is your chance to shift position.


So ok--you've done all that--and you can't avoid a certain one or two persons whom you would prefer not to receive 'encouragement' from. But you don't want to leave the sesshin and you don't feel it something you need to bring to the attention of the person heading the sesshin: just put on some padding: no different than a kid slipping a book down their pants before getting caned--and yet totally different--because the kyosaku is not punishment!

Anonymous said...

and as y'all can see by all the above, as many positive experiences I have had with the kyosaku, it is totally understandable that it is a practice in the process of dying out.

From that standpoint, those of us who have yet the opportunity to experience it have still theopportunity to understand for ourself this misunderstood aid to practice.

ultimately though, I agree: it is possible to become attached to the use of the kyosaku: upon that point alone, my vote would be to no longer practice it.

Anonymous said...

101 baby.

anon #108 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
gniz said...

Hey Anon,

I found your responses (I get emails for each comment) and not sure why they didnt post. I went and posted it without issue...

anon #108 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
anon #108 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
anon #108 said...

Meanwhile...

Brad...has often commented that he thinks mindfulness is not helpful nor possible (as have you yourself by the way).

I don't believe so, gniz. For the record:

Mindfulness is both helpful and possible.

In fact I recall - not sure whether here or on your blog - saying how helpful mindfulness-based cognitive therapy (as advocated and taught by Shonin, I believe) have been for me as I adjust to tinnitus (still adjusting!).

I think we may be confusing a couple of things. I'll wait for your glitch to get sorted and then post some further thoughts over at your place.

NEUROPLASTY said...

Just a couple of thoughts.

1) I recall S. Suzuki stating something to the effect that we are just buddhists. We shouldn't even say we are Soto or Rinzai or such and such.

2) Urine is sterile (unless you have a UTI).

3) If you don't want to be hit with a stick then get up and leave or ask them to stop. I do not think that I need to be hit with a stick to awaken. But Suzuki also said "Not always so". So, sometime I might need to be hit with a stick.

4) How you decide to become awake is up to you. The Buddha made this very clear. And Linji said to kill the buddha. Which means to me that I should not let any concept impede my progress on the road. If I am becomming too attached to it I should let it go because it's causing suffering.


5) The problem is suffering right? If you know that you are suffering then that's a start. Now there is a chance to awaken again.

We are talking about the middle path right?

Anonymous said...

108!!

Hail 108 everywhere!

cptcha: weabble

Anonymous said...

showing the bruises...

this kind of opens up its own area of consideration

I am not saying that one friend wouldn't show another friend bruises, but why would they?

Practice is a personal and intimate thing. To bring up with a sangha member or to bring up with someone outside the sangha or outside the lineage aspects of practice you personally have issues with isn't encouraged.
This isn't due to cult secrecey practices (although one certainly should take the Am I In A Cult test if there is any smidge of doubt about it).

This has to do with the fact that it is your practice, not others opinions, impressions, reactions or blogs about what you tell them about your practice.

It rests squarely on your own shoulders.
To share the intimacy of your practice with someone you are intimate with mixes up things that don't necessarily belong together. F'rinstance why would you tell your current lover about activities you used to do with a prior lover? I mean there isn't anything forbidding you to do so, but most of us just don't.
There may be specific and special circumstances in which it is the most perfect thing to share...

If coming away from a rohatsu sesshin the first thing you want to do is get on skype and show off your shoulder bruises--it strikes me as odd, maybe even softcore.

But maybe it has nothing at all to do with sesshin and the kyosaku, maybe this is just one gal's chance to have an excuse to bare some flesh for a guy she thinks is kinda cute or something. Long distance tease if she's in Japan and he's not.

Some people do use their interest in religion, their interest in anything, and every circumstance they find themselves in as a social/sexual/power broking and networking tool. It is their nature.

capcha: pallat

Uku said...

Hi Anon 108,

you asked

"Is it more difficult to pursue the truth/find contentment if your time and energy is taken up with pursuing, acquiring and looking after things and people?"

Yes, it is difficult but is it more difficult? I don't know because I think monastic and family are two separate things but still the same. They are like two different vehicles into the same goal (yeah, fuck the goals but I think you understand my point. :))

Antaiji's abbot Muho wrote something about how for him the combining family life (he has wife and children) and devotion to practice Buddhism is one big koan. Of course I don't live in the monastery grounds and but I understand what he means and I agree with him. I have never been interested of monastic practice because I truly believe it is possible to practice very diligently in the daily life where you have responsibilities, wife and kids and so on. And besides I'm idealistic enough to think that being inside the society I can help people much more than being in the monastery. Master Dogen emphasized how the practice of zazen should be in everything, in everywhere. And although I'm very busy with my studies, work, family life, I have always found time for concrete zazen. If someone is saying to me that "aw man, I don't have enough time to practice zazen because I have wife and kids and so on", I think he/she has perfectly wrong attitude against the Buddhist practice. There are no excuses, there's always time to practice Buddhism.

But these are my opinions, that's all.

Peace,
Uku

anon #108 said...

Thanks Uku.

john e mumbles said...

Hey Anon 108, way off topic here, did you know that on page 481 of his massive bio LIFE, Kieth Richards reveals that the name of the telecaster he plays on "Satisfaction" is Malcolm!

Bangers and mash,baby!

anon #108 said...

I did not know that, john!

I'm pleasantly surprised. This side of the pond Malcolm has never been a cool name (I recall an ad campaign for a cold remedy featuring a mucus-enriched guy called 'Balcolm').

Do we know wherefore Keef so named his Tele?

proulx michel said...

Malcolm = maol Coluim, disciple of St Columban. Name of four kings of Scotland, among which Malcolm III, brother of Macbeth.

No name to be ashamed of...

anon #108 said...

Hey thanks pm! I knew the name is Scottish, but have never known the details. (I doubt my first generation Anglo-Russian-Jewish mother knew them either). But yeah...it's my name. I'll be proud. Why not!

buddy said...

anon at 10:51
'If coming away from a rohatsu sesshin the first thing you want to do is get on skype and show off your shoulder bruises--it strikes me as odd, maybe even softcore.

But maybe it has nothing at all to do with sesshin and the kyosaku, maybe this is just one gal's chance to have an excuse to bare some flesh for a guy she thinks is kinda cute or something. Long distance tease if she's in Japan and he's not.'


Whoa, I think you're projecting your own fantasies onto Brad's story. To me it's very straightforward: she went on a retreat, she had a very disturbing experience, so she told a friend who happens to be an 'expert in the field'.

'Practice is a personal and intimate thing. To bring up with a sangha member or to bring up with someone outside the sangha or outside the lineage aspects of practice you personally have issues with isn't encouraged.' Really? By whom? You're the only person I've ever heard say that.
The purpose of the sangha is for mutual support, is it not?

john e mumbles said...

Hey Malcolm, Well, yeah, there's the rub. It seems that Keith and his guitar tech a long time ago named them to keep them straight in concert, and if I remember right (I'm nowhere near the bio at the moment)they did it using the name on the guitar left by its manufacturing inspector. So its a practical, not a nostalgic, consideration, but interestin' nonetheless.

Did you ever run across any of the Stones when you were touring, etc., I understand you played vastly different music and gigs in the day, but...?

Anonymous said...

Buddy

I forgot the common practice of everybody showing everyone else the bruises they all got at the end of a sesshin. It's the grande finale of the retreat!

different people bruise more easily than others
Bruise means injury to tissue, but not necessarily an indication of the force used. Over 5 days you could get bruises in all different stages of coloration.

Brad writes 'she showed me these big huge bruises on both shoulders from severe beatings with the kiyosaku (stick of discipline). She said they didn't even stop smacking her when she cried."

So in this unmentioned lineage are we to understand there is uncontrolled, unrestrained flailing at a participant at a retreat?
People do leave retreats before they are finished. They do it all the time. Brad wrote about one such participant who left without making sure the tasks he had been assigned and was responsible for were redistributed. At a kinhin they don't return to their seat. After lunch they don't come back to the zendo. In the morning they don't fall into line for the morning muster before heading to the hondo (chanting hall).
Brad's friend stayed.
Only she can answer for herself why she went to this particular sesshin in this lineage (is it the lineage she is training in?) Only she can explore her experiences of why she stayed if she was being injured by remaining; or her experiences of having no place else to go, no one to turn to for help and having to put up with what she was experiencing as harmful to herself.
Only she can fathom her experience.
It is for her to digest it.
To dismiss it as superficially as 'huge bruises on her shoulders' and 'they kept smacking her even when she cried.' Is a disservice to everyone concerned.


Brad's spelling and definition of the stick used is different from the two I am familiar with in the two lineages I trained in.
soto: kyosaku, awakening stick and rinzai: keisaku, compassion stick.
In both use of the stick is specifically prescribed. It is a very formal act.There are a series of bows before and after: accepting and giving this 'encouragement.'

I didn't get the impression Brad's friend had a particularly disturbing experience because Brad writes further on that 'the whole thing sounded intensely ridiculous and even comical.'
I don't think Brad would have summed it up this way had his friend had 'a very disturbing experience.'

"They kept on smacking her even when she cried"
conjures up for me some film noir kind of scene -- the blond with the dark red lipstick and nails, sobbing while the thugs surround her...

Free to leave, but didn't.

For the sake of the dharma do I stay, do I go?
For the sake of practice...I give argument for it (continued use of the kyosaku), for ending it?

Brad spells it kiyosaku and calls it 'stick of discipline'
Nishijima Roshi doesn't use a kyosaku/keisaku/kiyosaku in his practice.
Is this what Nishijima calls the stick used by others, when their on names for the stick they use is different?

The retreats Nishijima Roshi, and now Brad leads in Japan are very different from other retreats: they start late in the morning by comparison. The retreats are catered, the sitting periods end earlier in the day by comparison.
Brad has explained this approach by saying that retreats should not be so very different from your 'regular' life. It makes sense to me to have a practice which allows your life to be your practice.
This makes sense to me. In essence all practices headed in the same direction: your life.
So all these different approaches are out there.
"Ridiculous, comical' to some, 'lightweight' to some.
Each of us, for ourself, takes it up. Seeing it through....

anon #108 said...

Almost worth lying about, john...

But no, I've never met any of the Stones.

My ol mate The Only Ones' John Perry spent a little while with Keith one day (he was interested in the band before CBS signed them) and told me how K had passed three annoying hours at the piano playing three chords (THE three chords? We are not told). The tale may have got taller in the telling, but who knows...we're talking Keef here.

...And the keyboard player who suggested to my ex-wife that she might fancy me as her next boyfriend - she had a thing for bass players and pilots - played in Mick's bother, Chris's band.

...And I did take drugs with other sundry n'er-do-wells who knew people who knew people who knew the Stones, but that's the closest I got, I'm afraid.

Still time, though ;)

john e mumbles said...

Well Mal, yer English aren't ya? Hasn't every Englishman and woman met the Beatles and the Stones and the whole lot of 'em? It's a small island, England...

Thats like saying, William S. Burroughs spent the last ten years of his life or longer in Kansas: did I ever meet him? Well, yeah, guess I did...

Anonymous said...

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