Tuesday, November 09, 2010

結跏趺坐 or Why The New Shobogenzo is the Second Best Translation

First logistical stuff. If you're in Los Angeles, you still have one more chance to hear me talk. Tomorrow (Sunday Nov. 14, 2010) at 7pm I'll be speaking at the Bodhi Tree bookstore 8585 Melrose Avenue West Hollywood, CA 90069-5199.

Also, the folks from Dogen Sangha Los Angeles have put together some videos of me and stuck them up on the Dogen Sangha Los Angeles YouTube Channel. They'll be adding more soon.

Also, my newest book Sex, Sin, and Zen: A Buddhist Exploration of Sex from Celibacy to Polyamory and Everything in Between has been nominated as the worst religious book cover by a website called Religious Bulletin. Yay! I hope I win because then they can put "Award Winning Author" on my next book.

Also I just put up a new article on the Suicide Girls' Safe For Work Blog. It's called Desire and you can find it by clicking on the word "Desire" in this here sentence right here.

Ans speaking of Suicide Girls, I'll be on their radio show tomorrow night. For more details on that just click right here!

****

Last weekend I went to the San Francisco Zen Center (SFZC) to participate in an event celebrating the publication of Kazuaki Tanahashi's translation of the complete 95 chapter Shobogenzo.

If you want to see what I said there go to this link and scroll ahead to 36:26 into the piece.

This new English language edition of Shobogenzo is essentially the San Francisco Zen Center edition of Shobogenzo. They own the copyright, they provided the bulk of the funding for the project and 32 priests from SFZC acted as co-translators, the average person working on between one and three chapters.

Naturally, during the celebration this weekend a number of people proclaimed that this was the best English translation of Shobogenzo. And, of course, those of us who worked on or, as in my case, were associated with people who worked on other English translations said that ours were the best. It became a bit of a running gag. If you watch the video of my talk on Saturday you'll see my contribution to the gag. I was the third or forth person that day to make this joke. But it wasn't really a joke.

At one point Kaz said that every translation of Shobogenzo was the best in its own way. Each one provided a unique and valuable perspective. A very diplomatic response! And true. I'm sure he meant it.

I haven't read much of the Tanahashi Shobogenzo yet. I read a few chapters while I was at Tassajara over the Summer and a couple more since I bought a copy for myself ($150, ouch! And that was with a discount!). I am not an expert on it the way I am on the Nishijima/Cross version, which I've read at least four times cover to cover, and have read my favorite bits maybe a dozen times or more and which I produced a book of my own about (see link below). Though I'm still hard pressed to quote chapter and verse even of this version.

Even so, I feel safe saying the Tanahashi Shobogenzo is the second best one available, after the one by Gudo Wafu Nishijima and Chodo Cross, which will always be the best (which is high praise from someone as picky as me, for whatever that's worth) . I'm familiar with the earlier versions of Tanahashi's translations that have appeared in books like Moon In a Dewdrop and Enlightenment Unfolds. During the couple of years when it was tough to track down a copy of the Nishijima/Cross edition, I used to often recommend the Tanahashi books. I felt that they were the closest to the original. Now you can easily find the Nishijima/Cross version on line. (links to follow below)

The main reason the Nishijima/Cross version is best is because it so faithfully replicates the original Japanese Shobogenzo it's almost too much. Even Dogen's odd word order is retained as much as possible. This means it sacrifices a lot in terms of readablity. But then, so does Dogen's original. So that's as it should be. It was never meant to be easy reading.

The other big advantage of the Nishijima/Cross edition are the copious footnotes on every page. All of Dogen's obscure references to ancient Chinese texts are provided. And any time a Japanese word has been translated in a way that might be questionable, the original Japanese wording is also footnoted.

These two factors make for an edition of Shobogenzo that is the closest a person who can read English but can't read Japanese is going to get to discovering a pair of magic glasses that allow them to read the original Japanese. No one is ever going to be able to match it in that way until the day the English language itself changes so much that this version becomes outmoded for that reason. Sorry. It can't be done.

One area in which the Tanahashi version is clearly superior is in terms of poetry. I have to admit, the Nishijima/Cross edition is clunky as hell. It loses a lot of the beauty of the original by trying to stick to a very nuts and bolts literal translation. Tanahashi and his co-translators have done a tremendous job of making an English version that sings like the original.

The reason I feel the Tanahashi edition isn't quite as good overall relates to a lot of the aspects of trying to study something as personal and intimate as Zen in a large institution like SFZC. You can distill the reasons I think this edition is only second best by looking at the way they chose to translate the Japanese compound 結跏趺坐 (kekka fuza).

結跏趺坐 (kekka fuza) has one clear and totally unambiguous meaning in English. It means sitting in the Lotus posture (full, half or quarter). There is no other possible interpretation. So we're not talking here about a word that has nuances a translator could argue about. It's a proper noun with a set English equivalent. The word is used often in Shobogenzo as a synonym for zazen.

During the presentations on Sunday at Green Gulch someone (I think it was Kaz himself, but I'm a little uncertain -- it's probably somewhere in that video feed I linked to above) explained something about how their translation was accomplished using the example of how they had chosen to translate this word.

Apparently they'd originally translated it as "sitting cross legged," which is good. I think that's the phrase the Nishijima/Cross version uses. However, some talk arose around SFZC that certain readers may not be able to do the Lotus posture and would feel put off by such a translation. After some discussion it was decided that 結跏趺坐 (kekka fuza) would be translated as "sitting in meditation" so as to allow those who could not manage to sit in the Lotus posture to feel included in Dogen's message.

I admit this is not a major failing. Really, it's pretty much the same thing. It doesn't drastically alter Dogen's message. But it does alter it nonetheless.

It's not that it alters his message in a minor way that bothers me so much as the reasons why the editors chose to alter Dogen's message.

They altered it because they felt the actual meaning of the phrase might limit the book's appeal. They altered it because of a committee decision.

The matter of the Lotus posture in Dogen's teaching is one that a lot of people love to argue about. But Dogen is pretty uncompromising. In Fukanzazengi (Recommending Zazen for All People) he allows for full Lotus or half Lotus and that's it. My own teacher, Gudo Nishijima, extends the meaning of half Lotus to include what is commonly known as quarter Lotus or "Burmese Posture" in the West these days. But Dogen says nothing about using seiza benches or chairs or sitting in any of the other myriad ways you often encounter in Zen centers in the Americas and Europe these days.

I myself have taken some heat for being a stickler about posture. But here's a little secret. Whenever someone comes to me one-to-one and shows me that they really, honestly cannot do full, half or quarter Lotus (incl. Burmese) I always try to work with them to find another way. I'll bet you dollars to donuts even Master Dogen would have done the same in such a situation. Yet in public I never talk about any other postures.

The reason I don't talk in public about doing zazen in chairs or on seiza benches or what-have-you is that it seems like as soon as you mention the possibility of using these things, immediately half of the able bodied people in the room are rushing to get themselves a chair so they can be more comfortable. But zazen is not about comfort. In fact, without a bit of discomfort it's really not zazen.

Be that as it may, this change is just one of several in the book that reflect this attitude. In another instance Dogen's phrase "the kingly Bodhi Tree" was changed to "the glorious Bodhi tree" so as not to seem so sexist. I'm sure other such changes abound. They don't really alter the fundamental meaning of Dogen's prose, but they do alter it, and for reasons that appear to me to be a bit silly.

This is what happens when committees get involved. Gudo Nishijima and Mike Cross had no such problems. There were only two people involved in the nitty gritty of the translation and three or four others involved in editing.

What happened with this new edition of Shobogezo is also instructive in understanding the difference between studying Zen in a large institution and studying Zen in a smaller setting. I am a big fan of the San Francisco Zen Center. I like what they do and I'm happy to support them. I often recommend people to go to SFZC, Tassajara and Green Gulch. They're good places. They're good people.

But the truth is, if SFZC and institutions like it had been the only places I knew of to study Zen, I'd probably have lasted a year at most. That's not my kind of scene.

Is one way better and the other worse? I can only speak for myself. I feel like the Nishijima/Cross edition of Shobogenzo is the best. This doesn't mean I hate every other edition. But only one edition can be the best. As far as teaching styles go, I went with the form of Zen that suited me. If I didn't feel it was best for me I would have gone somewhere else.

Just to be very clear here, the Kazuaki Tanahashi translation of Shobogenzo is a magnificent achievement. Here's a good article all about how it came to be. It's a really, really tremendous translation. I highly recommend it. I spent $150 on my copy, and I can't really afford to do that kind of stuff these days. I did it because I genuinely like it.

But it still ain't the best!

LINKS
Sit Down and Shut Up: Punk Rock Commentaries on Buddha, God, Truth, Sex, Death, and Dogen's Treasury of the Right Dharma Eye by Brad Warner
Master Dogen's Shobogenzo Book 1 translated by Gudo Nishijima and Chodo Cross
Master Dogen's Shobogenzo Book 2 translated by Gudo Nishijima and Chodo Cross
Master Dogen's Shobogenzo, Book 3 translated by Gudo Nishijima and Chodo Cross
Master Dogen's Shobogenzo, Book 4 translated by Gudo Nishijima and Chodo Cross
Enlightenment Unfolds by Dogen, translated by Kazuaki Tanahashi
Moon in a Dewdrop: Writings of Zen Master Dogen translated by Kazuaki Tanahashi
Treasury of the True Dharma Eye: Zen Master Dogen's Shobo Genzo translated by Kazuaki Tanahashi
Free digital download of the Nishjima/Cross edition of Shobogenzo in PDF format

151 comments:

Zach said...

Sweet jumping jesus... am I first again??:)

Zach said...

And SECOND TOO??

... you guys hafta have Cat-Like reflexes if you wanna hang with me:)

Zach said...

AAAAAAAAND 3rd:)

"Is one way better and the other worse? I can only speak for myself. I feel like the Nishijima/Cross edition of Shobogenzo is the best. This doesn't mean I hate every other edition. But only one edition can be the best. As far as teaching styles go, I went with the form of Zen that suited me.

Well lets be frank... he IS your teacher.
You gotta show respect...;)

It's a wonderful edition I must admit... I have the Nishijima/Cross translation as well but it reads a bit like the Silmarillion IMO... I am really enjoying this edition tho, It's quite beautiful and easy to read.

Anonymous said...

Brad,

In your SG article you write:
"We’d like to think that any human being ought to be able to differentiate what is and is not acceptable behavior..."

In your other writings (books, blogs, etc.) you often state that everyone always knows what is the right action in any given moment, but that we are too busy or whatever to take note.

So which is it? Do we or do we not?

Anonymous said...

Fifth. This cat was sleeping.

Anonymous said...

Posture so important. What did Suzuki Roshi say, 'When your back becomes straight, your thoughts will become silent.' There is a constant connection between the wandering mind and the spasm which deforms the body from its norm. Laziness about posture is the ego defending its enclosure...a relaxed upright posture is freedom. Hence the way a person stands & walks reveals their state quite clearly.

You cannot even breathe properly outside of a good posture.

Anonymous said...

Meow.

Mysterion said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Anonymous said...

yes, verry interesting...

Al said...

Brad,

What is up with the Nargajuna book that you and Nishijima Roshi were doing?

Al

rashid1891 said...

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Anonymous said...

Geraldo!

Khru said...

I'm the first!!!..haw, haw, haw!!!!.I'm the second!!!...haw, haw, haw!!!...hey, it WAS funny the first 50 times...

proulx michel said...

Zach said:
but it reads a bit like the Silmarillion IMO...

What's the problem with the Silmarillion? It's perfectly readable (if you really know English, have notions of German, and are able to memorise the names...)


(captcha: imutal. Talk about Elves imutality...)

Anonymous said...

The Nagarjuna book is still listed as to be published in May 2010 by monkfishpublishing: http://www.monkfishpublishing.com/pages/catalogue.htm#forthcoming%20releases

When will it be published and why is it behind schedule?

Anonymous said...

Correct link: http://www.monkfishpublishing.com/pages/catalogue.htm#forthcoming%20releases

Anonymous said...

Cut-off part of the link: catalogue.htm#forthcoming%20releases

Anonymous said...

A somewhat fishy publisher it seems

OsamaVanHalen said...

I am currently compiling recipes that were used by wandering Buddhist monks in ancient China and Japan. I plan on publishing a cookbook and calling it The Hobo Tenzo.

Rich said...

Good SG article. You could probably compile a new book with all of them - Suicide Girls Dharma Talks

BiblioPhil said...

The link to Amazon for the Tanahashi book says it lists for $94 American but will not be released until July 2011. Do you have a link to the publisher or wherever? I know you (Brad) bought a copy at the gig, but Zach said last post he bought a copy, too, where did you find it Zach?

Harry said...

@OsamaVanH,

I'm currently working on an adaptation of a 1920s musical which will star the cast of The Muppets: "Showboat Gonzo".

Regards,

Harry.

Anonymous said...

Brad, Thanks for giving us your opinion as to why Kaz's translation is not as accurate or as good as your teacher's on the eve of it's publication. I'm sure Kaz appreciates your candor. I hope you will be just as compelled and honest when the time comes to publicly compare Nishijima's Mūlamadhyamakakārikā to previous versions.

Anonymous said...

Here is the link to the publisher:
http://www.shambhala.com/

Anonymous said...

Well, considering that neither of the authors of this new Nishijima/Warner "translation" of Nagarjuna's work knows sanskrit, I think calling it a translation is giving it more credit than is due. It's probably a pretty good explanation of Nishijima's ideas, but how is it related to Nagarjuna's thoughts is everyone's guess.

Personally I wouldn't even dream of daring to translate, say, Shobogenzo without at least a passing understanding of the language it was written...

Anonymous said...

Nishijima does know sanskrit.

Zach said...

Khru said:
"I'm the first!!!..haw, haw, haw!!!!.I'm the second!!!...haw, haw, haw!!!...hey, it WAS funny the first 50 times...

A picture is worth a thousand words...

http://corruptcitizen.com/wp-content/uploads/haters-gonna-hate-batman-on-rollerskates.jpg

Zach said...

"What's the problem with the Silmarillion? It's perfectly readable (if you really know English, have notions of German, and are able to memorise the names...)

Absolutely nothing!
Just reads WAY different than the trilogy... which is WAAAAY different than the hobbit.:)

R said...

“Well lets be frank... he IS your teacher.
You gotta show respect”.


- I hope you're just joking.

- I mean I really do.

You just don't.



(and as for the Silmarillion, - you guys seem to be well versed in what I might be quite happy to know nothing about)

john e mumbles said...

Here's a direct way to the publisher's page so you don't have to go through a series of searches:

http://www.shambhala.com/html/catalog/items/isbn/978-1-59030-474-7.cfm

Guess if you use Brad's Amazon link you will wait till next July for their $95 price tag.

And why not? It took Kaz Tanahashi 50 years to compile it, can't a reader wait 9 months longer? Lessee, set aside $10 a month and you'll be ready...

Or just request that your local library purchase it and read it eventually....

Wahhh!! I want my MTV!!

Now!!!

+ said...

I recall the time I was in the Dojo Nishijima commented, after learning Sanskrit, that the translators of the Sutras into Chinese have ruined the Sutras. (He said “destroyed”, - cause his English wasn't that good. He studied Hebrew at the time too.)

Mumon said...

It can take a LONG time to be able to sit in the full lotus position.

Zach said...

BiblioPhil...

"The link to Amazon for the Tanahashi book says it lists for $94 American but will not be released until July 2011. Do you have a link to the publisher or wherever? I know you (Brad) bought a copy at the gig, but Zach said last post he bought a copy, too, where did you find it Zach?

No problemo - it's an EXCELLENT version imo, well worth the 150 clams... If possible, try to google a coupon code for Shambala Press... might get 20% off;)

http://www.shambhala.com/html/catalog/items/isbn/978-1-59030-474-7.cfm

Zendudest said...

Your comment regarding 'translation by committee' (or some such) is spot on. Certainly full/half lotus is the way to go if one can without injuring oneself.

However, to awaken to the truth of Dogen's teachings it is not essential to sit in any particular position (although a 'correct posture' is an upaya).

Sincerity is essential and here I quote from the Nishijima translation (Chapter 5):

"So now that each of us is meeting what is hard to meet, and is practicing what is hard to practice, we must not lose our sincerity. This [sincerity] is called “the body and mind of the Buddhist patriarchs”; it
inevitably becomes buddha and becomes a patriarch."

Nishijima, on Chapter 5 where I have taken this quote echos this:

"The inclusion of this chapter is very useful in understanding the
Shōbōgenzō, because what is written here represents in a concrete way Master Dōgen’s sincere attitude in pursuing the truth."

BiblioPhil said...

Thanks Anonymous, Mumbles, and Zach for the book ordering information.

Mysterion said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Mysterion said...

See THIS

Treasury of the True Dharma Eye
Zen Master Dogen's Shobo Genzo
Edited by Kazuaki Tanahashi
Hardcover / Shambhala Publications / 1282 pages / 6 x 9
ISBN 978-1-59030-474-7 / June 2011

Mysteri(w)ron(g) said...

Er, duh, Japanese is derived from Chinse pictographs.

Mysteri(w)ron(g) said...

Correction: Chinse should be Chinese

mysterion's linguist friend may have a point said...

Yes, 4:12/13, the written forms of both languages use the same pictographs. But he spoken language isn't derived from pictographs, is it?

mysterion's linguist friend may have a point said...

Correction: he should be the

Mysterion said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Anonymous said...

I appreciate Mysterion's ability to create lengthy replies based on a single word from another post. This is the true dharma.

john e mumbles said...

In the beginning was the Word. -Der Bibble

& The Word is a virus. -William S. Burroughs

We're all infected with it.

Blah blah blah = Blah blah blah

Seagal Rinpoche said...

If you want others to be happy, practice compassion. If you want to be happy, practice compassion.

john e mumbles said...

P.S. "slap hour" is my favorite time of day.

Khru said...

"A picture is worth a thousand words...

http://corruptcitizen.com/wp-content/uploads/haters-gonna-hate-batman-on-rollerskates.jpg"

LOL. Nice one, Zach.

PhilBob-SquareHead said...

Why would you spend your time reading these books when you could just enjoy doing what needs to be done? Clean your house. Wash your car. Call that elderly relative you haven't communicated with in awhile.

I've had it with religious books.

Biggus Maximus said...

Oh how very droll Phil.. But tell us something we don't know.

Pier Pressure said...

Blogger PhilBob-SquareHead said...
"...Call that elderly relative you haven't communicated with in awhile.
I've had it with religious books."

I'll say AMEN to that, brother.

Today, when I was walking over to Safeway to buy some Chef Boyardee Overstuffed Beef Raviolis, a skinny guy with a bible came up and asked me for some money to eat.

Why way money? I ask. Eat the bible instead.

Fish on an Ass said...

Sea Gull Rim Shotie is now the Dalai Lama (a.k.a. Dolly Llama)

'I'll pack a' to that.

Anonymous said...

*This blog has been flagged for excessive hyperlinking. Continued levels of excessive hyperlinking may result in an increase in annoyance among readers as well as a general feeling that the Internet has become a tangled web of useless information.*

Jared said...

RE Philbob

I agree with the spirit of your post but maybe not the scope of it. The "Western" (i.e. post Greek Philosophy societies)approach to knowledge and, to a certain extent, wisdom, is that much of reality can be deduced using logic and critical thinking. Subsequently a rich culture of academic writing has emerged. The "Eastern" approach is very much rooted in experience and practice, and I believe this shows in a large number of varied sects with different practices rather than a wealth of competing written works. This isn't to say that the West doesn't have competing sects or the East doesn't have competing written works, but they certainly have different concentrations of each.

To that end, the American approach to Zen definitely seems to be a literary one: if I could only find that one book that perfectly describes "it" then I will finally understand and I won't have to sit zazen at all! And so I definitely agree with you that the VAST majority of us need to (sorry in advance) sit down and shut up! Zen is zazen, and there's only so much you can learn from books.

That being said, I think reading fairly actively helps keep interest levels up and can augment practice very well. I have come to a better understanding of my practice through reading various authors with various approaches. The best example I have of this is when someone told me about Huang Po and when I checked him out I really dug what he had to say. Sure, reading it didn't substitute at all for sitting, but it definitely did SOMETHING for me and my practice. So that's my two cents.

verification was "fanhol", as in, "Jared, why are you being such a Brad Warner fanhol?"

Mysterion said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
PhilBob-SquareHead said...

RE: Jared

I love literature. I like to read. Your education is no excuse to avoid the truth.

Reply when you hit your 30s and your doctorate hasn't paid off.

When you think you got it all figured out, write a book like Mr. Warner did.

Best of luck!

Mysterion said...

cash value 1/100th¢

Mysterion said...
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Mysterion said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Mysterion said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Mysterion said...
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Ran K. said...

Re: M @ 4:01 pm.

1.) I am +. (- see 7:12 am)

2.) I can see why such a guy would be a friend of yours. This is from nature.

Piotr Kempa said...

Hi Brad, this is OT of this post but how does one contact you otherwise? If you even need scientific data confirming what you do, here it is:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/11/101111141759.htm

you probably heard that already anyway :)

cheers!

p.s. I know you don't read all the comments, don't worry

anon #108 said...

We've been here before...

As clearly evidenced by the version of Nargarjuna's MMK published on his blog, not only is Gudo's grasp of English vocabulary, grammar and syntax poor, but so is his grasp of Sanskrit vocabulary, grammar and syntax. Perhaps this is in large part due to the fact that he has studied Sanskrit in English...and his grasp of English is poor. Whatever the reasons, Gudo has made very many basic errors of translation in his version of the MMK. These are simple errors that go to the heart of the sense of passages - I'm not talking subtle shades of meaning.

If the book is ever published I trust that Brad will have done a good job of re-writing the Jenglish and of presenting Gudo's interpretation of the MMK to English speakers. But having no Sanskrit himself, Brad won't have been able to modify the Jenglish in line with the original text. So what we get will be Brad's understanding of Gudo's understanding of a Sanskrit text that Gudo has misunderstood (yes, of course I mean 'misunderstood' as in 'misunderstood what the words mean').

Nevertheless, the book may well be an original and stimulating take on/interpretation of the MMK.

So if/when it comes out, I'll read the book with interest...and some concern that, having misunderstood the Sanskrit, Gudo's version will be dismissed not only by "Sanskrit scholars" and "Buddhists" but by anyone with any prior knowledge of Nagarjuna's text. If that happens, it will certainly have been a mistake to publish the book as a translation. As such, it will do no good for Gudo's - or Brad's - rep, but only give support to those who see Gudo as odd-ball revisionist; the ANS/four views crank with the dysfunctional sangha. His life and work deserve more than that.

I hope I've misunderstood what's going on.

OsamaVanHalen said...

Getting back to the original topic, how many zeroes are there in a Silmarillion?

anon #108 said...

My credentials:

About four years on-going serious daily self-tuition from standard Sanskrit primers and texts. Discussions in person and via email with my (Buddhist) teacher, Mike Luetchford, whose own version of the MMK, "Between Heaven and Earth" was published by Windbell books, the now defunct publishing arm of Degen Sangha, after Mike's attempt to collaborate with Gudo on a joint translation foundered. As Mike wrote in his preface, "Finding it increasingly difficult to deal with the problems that naturally arise in working with three radically different languages (Sanskrit, English and Japanese)..."

Original topic - -

I want my translations from medieval Japanese to be as literal as possible; to give me some approximation of the feel of the original text. Apparently the Nishijima/Cross version does that. It's got lots of helpful footnotes. And it's the work of a team, not a committee: more chance of consistency of style and translation of key phrases that recur throughout the book, helping me to reach my own conclusions about what's occurring.

And no, I am not biased. Perish the thought.

anon #108 said...

I mean "...the work of a two-person team, not a committee..."

Gotta be so careful.

Ran K. [- 67 (? ... + ...)] said...

I made the following note to myself yesterday as the computer was off:


Brad, - nerdiness is rooted in insincerity.

Always.

By definition.

Do try and discern. Surly you know what I mean.

True bad boys are rooted in insensitivity. A certain kind of. They’re not as stupid but they’ve got their own dirt to clean, same as the nerds, - only at different spots.

merciless said...

Ran, Nerdiness is sincerity personified in my view. Brad himself seems to be a very sincere nerd. I consider all serious religionists to be nerds, but I guess that mere dabblers can be insincere. If one pays close attention, one can witness an occasional disingenuous, guileful, two-faced comment on this very blog. I'm guessing those aren't the nerds.

Wiseass Zen said...

Great. I see a King James versus New International Version type argument in the future for Shobogenzo.

Jared said...

RE Philbob

"I love literature. I like to read. Your education is no excuse to avoid the truth.

Reply when you hit your 30s and your doctorate hasn't paid off."

I am curious what truth I am avoiding through pursuing an education. I also find your (perceived) hostility to be quite unfortunate. I can only hope that by age 30 I will have successfully avoided the cynicism that has crept into your life. I only meant to engage in some thoughtful conversation. Oh well.

How about you enjoy your literature, and I will enjoy mine?

Ran said...

I was following Brad’s speech.


- First I wanted to point to the difference between someone who is apparently enthusiastic about something he does not have genuine interest in, and someone who is genuinely attracted to something because of a true value it has, - whether he is rationally capable of appreciating it or not.

I could hardly imagine Brad is not capable of making this distinction. But he seems to intentionally (or partly so) pretend it doesn’t exist.


This has much to do with Tendo sending away men he would not accept to his temple - calling them small dogs. (- which I didn’t particularly like; I don’t remember where exactly does Dogen mention that)


I’m not really sure what you’d call a “religionist”. In Israel we have two state head rabbies. One is obviously gay and has been involved in certain odd occurrences which he of course denies. The other had sent hoodlum to beat up a young man who seem to have been somehow romantically engaged with his daughter. Not because the young man was insincere but because the rabbi didn’t consider him an appropriate match.


The actual state of religion may be a lot like Mysterion imagines.


Some men are merely emotional, as Mysterion imagines, some have true faith, and some are attracted to the way - at first perhaps as they might be to any [silly or not] contemporary trend, - and later noticing somewhat something different and beyond. (some don’t – of course.
- as you can notice from Brad’s talk – in the future it may be the majority. - or maybe not just in the future, - I really don’t know the scene)


A man who has established true faith is beyond nerdiness. Beyond coolness too, perhaps, - since this too may be a bit false.


I hope I got my point. And as for what goes here, - I really don’t read enough of the comments to tell.

It seems.

Though I did notice mumbles doesn’t really love me.

You win some, you lose some, I guess.

R said...

And there really are other things I should be doing.

night

Brad Warner said...

Anon said:
"Brad, Thanks for giving us your opinion as to why Kaz's translation is not as accurate or as good as your teacher's on the eve of it's publication. I'm sure Kaz appreciates your candor. I hope you will be just as compelled and honest when the time comes to publicly compare Nishijima's Mūlamadhyamakakārikā to previous versions."

I wouldn't worry about that. I'm sure plenty of people will be eager to criticize Nishijima's version of MMK!

Brad Warner said...

Anon said:

"Well, considering that neither of the authors of this new Nishijima/Warner "translation" of Nagarjuna's work knows sanskrit, I think calling it a translation is giving it more credit than is due. It's probably a pretty good explanation of Nishijima's ideas, but how is it related to Nagarjuna's thoughts is everyone's guess.

"Personally I wouldn't even dream of daring to translate, say, Shobogenzo without at least a passing understanding of the language it was written..."

Like the guy below you said, Nishijima does read Sanskrit. I do not. The introduction in the book makes this abundantly clear.

anon #108 said...

...and sometimes - maybe often, Gudo has deliberately chosen alternative renderings of Sanskrit words (for there are often many in the dictionary), believing he's found a correspondence to an aspect of Dogen's thought, as he sees it - usually the four views/philosophies. Those correspondences can no doubt be teased out, but IMHO, Gudo has gone too far - often torturing the apparent meaning of a passage to make it comply with the theory. Is Gudo revealing Nagarjuna's true intentions, or, blinded by confidence in his own very useful, even true, idea, merely confusing matters?

Perhaps I shouldn’t care. Well I don’t. Not a lot.
The old man may have something important to tell us.

So good luck with it, Brad. You’re either being foolish or brave. Or both. Or…

Philbob said...

Jared, I don't know where you come from, sissy boy, but you're on the cusp of earning yourself an American-style beatdown. You will be hunted down and smoked out. Brought to justice.

Mysterion said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Anonymous said...

Most college students would be better off dropping out of school and investing the money they would spend on college. Or spend the money traveling, working, playing, and spending time with smart people talking about important things. Mysterion notes that a college degree proves you completed something that you started. Maybe that is all it proves. Sarah Palin has a degree. So does Ben Roethlisberger. Ansel Adams and Leo Tolstoy never attended college.

Wiseass Zen said...

Some time back there was a cross reference list where one could see where the references to Shobogenzo in Sit Down and Shut Up appeared in the original (Nishijima/ Cross) translation of Shobogenzo. Anyone know where to find it?

Wiseass Zen said...

I keep trying the link on the main page and keep getting a "page does not exist" error.

Wiseass Zen said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Mysterion said...

Anonymous Anonymous said...
"Most college students would be better off dropping out of school and investing the money they would spend on college."

Most college students don't belong in college to begin with, so what's your point?

Invest in WHAT? Wall Street? LOL

An education IS the best investment that one can possibly make. It is an investment in your own future and an expansion of your future earning potential - unless you happen to be born into a very wealthy family (e.g. 0.01%).

The first 18 years of my life, I lived above a "mom & pop" corner grocery store. The highest combined income my parents had was $10,000 in 1966.

My second year out of college (1973), I earned $15,000 and never took a reduction in pay thereafter. The last year I worked, I was paid based upon experience and education - a typical amount - $83K.

Google Rich - Stanford.

The world's youngest billionaire is now 26-year-old Dustin Moskovitz, who is eight days younger than his former Harvard roommate and Facebook co-founder Mark Zuckerberg.

MORE

Had I "invested" the $3,600 I spent on college in the Dow Jones Industrial companies, I would have lost 1/2 of it because, as companies fail, the Dow Jones Industrial companies CHANGE. You buy a stock, you pay a commission, you sell a stock, you pay another commission. The stock market is good for churning commissions.

25¢ of every dollar is spent managing the other 75¢. THAT condition is as perverted as it is sick.

Oh, in hindsight (which never fails) I could have bought $3600 in gold and it would be worth $140,000 today (assuming that I could have held the gold for 40 years). That $140,000 would not buy a house in my neighborhood and the interest (2%) is not nearly enough to live on.

Republicans (like you appear to be) are utterly without a clue.

Mysterion said...

The last two decades have been the lost decades for investors. The 21st century began with a savage bear market. By its nadir in March 2003, US stocks had fallen 45 per cent. Markets then staged a recovery, only to plunge again late in 2007 into another epic bear market fueled by the credit and banking crisis. Since 1990, stock have lost a third of their value in real (inflation-adjusted) terms, while the major markets all gave negative real returns at an annualized rate of -4 per cent to -6 per cent.

Dittos said...

yep, Rush & Sean, that's better than college...

i listen all 'a time

Anonymous said...

Mysterion, Instead of learning what you know and doing what you do, I prefer working and learning for myself. When I get to retirement age I hope I can keep on working. You seem to think everyone wants to be a retired blowhard. (which you appear to be)

Mysterion said...

Anonymous Anonymous said...
"Mysterion, Instead of learning what you know and doing what you do..."

Make no mistake about it, I most certainly do NOT want you to learn what I know nor do what I do.

I want you to take your own unique way, have your own unique experiences, and (perhaps) arrive at your own satisfying answers.

You would not, in my most reckless moment, be considered worthy of my instruction.

Saucy Jack said...

Of the entire comments section, I suspect only

Blogger john e mumbles

gets it.

Hidden in the open in "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon."

Master Li Mu Bai had the instructive tongue.

Jen Yu actually had an attentive ear.

At the end, she had but one thing to demonstrate:
what?

Be faithful to the teachings (Dharma), the rest is superfluous commentary.

mtto said...

Wiseass Zen,

http://www.dogensanghalosangeles.org/dsla/SDSU_Index.html

I emailed Brad about the bad link, but he's on an airplane so don't expect it to get fixed soon. I just found the broken link stuff last week and didn't realize that the link on this blog was broken, too. Sorry.

PhilBob-SquareHead said...

RE Jared:

That was not me who posted at 9:10 AM.

I was kinda being silly. Apologies for any disrespect. I truly hope you go far in your pursuits. I may be a cynic though. Scratch any cynic and you will find a disappointed idealist.


Mysterion blows hard? I told ya'll he is really Harvey Fierstein.

Anonymous said...

Watch it Philbob.. You keep talking like that and mysterion might not consider you worthy of his instruction. Try and imagine the pain of that moment.

Mysterion said...

Pain?

Pffffffffffffffffft.

7. Evolution of the terms 'Mysterion' and 'Sacramentum'

The Apostolic Fathers realised fully the significance of the words and deeds of Christ. Therefore they evolved certain rites and eventually couched them in signs and symbols. Subsequently they christened them 'Sacraments'. Here again, it is to be admitted that, this term is not Biblical as it is not seen anywhere in the Bible. Nonetheless rites which are 'sacraments' in 'kind' and 'type' are seen in the OT. Circumcision, Passover and Sacrificial cultus, which all are based on the Sinai Covenant are a few examples. Originally, the word used in the NT, for what we signify today 'Sacraments', was the Greek word 'mysterion', meaning mystery in the English language. 'Mysterion' denoted the pagan cults people were initiated into.
source

Mysterion said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
go spell trvth said...

**** religion(s) and the horse(s) it (they) rode in on...

john e mumbles said...

"'Mysterion' denoted the pagan cults people were initiated into."

There are many others, but a really good one-stop-shop intro is THE ANCIENT MYSTERIES A Sourcebook-Sacred Texts of the Mystery Religions of the Ancient Mediterranean World ed. by Marvin W. Meyer.

Years ago I used, as reference and starting point part of (p 202-204) the translation of Lucian of Samosata's MENIPPUS (Or, The Descent into Hades), 6-9, in an invocation of Hecate. The impressive results were documented and published in Abiegnus -A Journal of the Western Esoteric Traditions, Seattle, WA in the late 1990's.

This shit is potent, kids. Not the pablum you get in the watered down rituals that constitute "church" on sunday mornings.

Anonymous said...

Jundo says

As a student of Nishijima Roshi, I will say this. I have been told by several of the well known "Dogen Scholars" out there (after telling them to not be polite) that the "Nishijima-Cross" Shobogenzo is perhaps the most technically precise and accurate ... although not necessarily the most smoothly readable ... of the "complete" translations out there (there are many partial translations of sections of Shobogenzo). Frankly, there are some aspects of phrasing here and there that are based on my teacher's very personal and particular interpretation of Dogen (in the footnotes particularly), but (I was told) that is easily overlooked. I also find it rather "clunky" sounding sometimes in its faithfulness to the literal word.

Overall, I (and several of the scholars agreed with this) find the Tanahashi translations ... by a gifted poet working with some of the west's most gifted priest-writers ... the best "Middle Way" compromise between technical accuracy and beautiful prose and poetry. Generally lovely, and a pleasure to read (though rarely "easy" ... hey, its still Dogen, for Buddha's Sake! ). By far, it is my favorite to read, although I usually read two or three translations side by side (Nishijima-Cross, the Soto Zen Text Project for its historical information and scholarly research, maybe Shasta Abbey although a little reverential and "King James" for my personal taste sometimes ... other translation are hit and miss). I am very much looking forward to the "complete" Tanahashi Shobogenzo. Of course, I already turn to "Moon In A Dewdrop" and the other earlier partial translations by Tanahashi Sensei. The pricetag is a little prohibitive right now!

http://www.zenforuminternational.org/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=5591&hilit=+tanahashi

Mysterion said...

heaven forbid that someone somewhere read any book other than the Wholly Babel.

Delivery estimate: November 22, 2010 - December 8, 2010
"The Ancient Mysteries: A Sourcebook of Sacred Texts"
Marvin W. Meyer; Paperback; $9.59

p.s. Thanks again...

Word Verification = diess
I kid you not!

From the abstract noun for day (via Old French, thence Latin, this name occurs occasionally in the 15th century, and by the 1540s was a popular girls' name in some parishes). It was particularly popular in Scotland and northern England. (Rosslyn connection?)

Anonymous said...

open-minded

Anonymous said...

mysterion is king of the nerds. All hail!

Mysterion said...

Quoting sports statistics all day neither predicts nor wins tomorrows game. Especially if you are reciting baseball stats and tomorrows game is basketball.

Q: Question
A: Answer

Q: Question
A: Answer

Q: Question
A: Answer

No challenging authority.

Q: Question
A: Answer

Q: Question
A: Answer

Q: Question
A: Answer

No mystery.

Q: Question
A: Answer

Q: Question
A: Answer

Q: Question
A: Answer

No ambiguity.

Q: Question
A: Answer

Q: Question
A: Answer

Q: Question
A: Answer

Nothing learned, nothing gained, no progress.

The rote, memorization, and drill advocated by home schoolers is the death of thinking. And yet homeschoolers believe that they are right - the rod preventing any questioning of authority.

What about things like this?

Move along, nothing here to see, nothing here to question...

IDIOTS! Thinking stops where believing begins. Even in this.

p.s. I think reincarnation is one of the possibilities - parallel universes being another (e.g. instead of being born 'Charles,' you are born William or Harold) - with undisclosed possibilities being yet others.

Dogen in China? Certainly.
Dogen trained in China? Certainly.
Dogen as a disciple of a Chinese Master? Maybe, who really knows?. It's only speculation, at best.

Dogen as mastering Chu'an while in China? I wonder.

Read books, make your own opinions.

Airy said...

mysterion is a goof. 100!

Mysterion said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Anonymous said...

Sheesh, are we still banging on about religions? Anyone would think you had a complex about it.

rashid1891 said...

it is very interesting story
is a very good picture

OsamaVanHalen said...

The most authoritative religious and philosophical texts were written in Sand Script. Sadly, they were obliterated by wind and rain very soon after they were written. All we are is dust in the wind (and rain).

anon #108 said...

Mysti wrote, "Read books, make your own opinions."

Yes indeed. And - if you have to - read books in translation.

But when inferring meaning from translated texts it's important to keep in mind how variable and unreliable translations - particularly translations of difficult texts from old languages - can be. (Old) Chinese and Japanese are very different languages from (modern) English and other Indo-European languages, and are especially difficult to translate.

There can never be a definitive or correct translation of Dogen's Shobogenzo. But some translations are more faithful to the original; more literal; less interpretive. An interpretive translation may be easier to read and understand, but your understanding is more likely to be that of the translator than the author. The less interpretive the translation, the greater the chance that your understanding of what's been written might approximate the author's.

So yes. Read lots of Shobogenzos and make your own opinions.

- Or, if you're on a 'Zen' kick, you can burn all the books and go be enlightened by some plum blossom.

john e mumbles said...

OsamaVanHalen: That's an interesting (unholy?) mix of Percy Bysshe Shelley and the band Kansas...

Captcha: uncry

Harry said...

JUNdo's criticism of the footnotes in the Nish./Cross translation is not balanced and seems selective.

There is indeed an undeniable (and pretty obvious and explicit) 'interpretive' element to the footnotes in places, but they also function to give the reader a foothold where otherwise the text may seem completely obscure such as where Dogen has used some defunct/obscure Chinese colloquialism, or has used an obscure phrase from Zen history in a non-obvious way, or has referred directly to the words of another master without stating it, or has referred to a traditional koan without stating it, or to some other Buddhist symbol or value etc etc etc... Dogen was dropping stuff in all the time like this to people who were likely much more familiar with his linguistic/cultural gamut. The footnotes on this material may well be the difference between 'getting' Dogen's meaning and not getting it in many places and it is one of the laudable features of the N/Cross trans. that is lacking in others. It also represents a very considerable amount of research work I imagine.

Regards,

Harry.

anon #108 said...

Good point about the Nishijima/Cross footnotes, Harry.

I wrote: "So yes. Read lots of Shobogenzos and make your own opinions." I should have added "But have some idea of where the translator's coming from" (they usually tell you). All translations are interpretative, but some translations are more interpretive than others...By all means read the Shasta Abbey version, but be aware that you're reading Hubert Nearman, not Dogen.

Anonymous said...

Brad,

Good luck on worst cover, but you are up against some stiff* competition!



*he he, I said stiff.
cagra, seriously

YKW (or you will, after you read what I have to say) said...

It seems to me the ancient Zen masters could competently compete – as it seems their habit has been – to a certain degree, - in giving an appropriate competent expression to the extreme and boundless depth of a certain blogger’s stupidity. - “You would not, in my most reckless moment, be considered worthy of my instruction”. - Shock and horror.

Though this man does have faith.

Amazing faith.

Seeing himself as wise is harder than chewing the stars.



- I couldn’t do it.






[fwiw,

R.]

Anonymous said...

111!

Mysterion said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
anonymous anonymous said...

"charlatans get to masquerade as teachers, while sociopaths in robes abuse their students, and it all goes unchallenged." - Barry Graham

This is fascinating because it is almost a perfect description of Barry Graham and his own situation in his own words. Except he wasn't consciously talking about himself.

"Thinking, discovery, and learning requires a fluidity of thought - letting go of one thing and moving on to another. Belief inhibits - even cripples."

This quote more accurately describes Barry Graham. But Barry Graham didn't say it. Unlike Barry Graham the person who said this has no fluidity of thought or ability to let go of his beliefs. One man is a criminal, the other a mere annoyance. What is interesting and what they both seem to have in common is the inability to recognize that what they are describing is themselves.

Anonymous said...

whatever

anonymous said...

anonymous anonymous said...
"charlatans get to masquerade"

Perfect description of L. Ron Hubbard

Anonymous said...

"Thinking, discovery, and learning requires a fluidity of thought - letting go of one thing and moving on to another. Belief inhibits - even cripples."

Whatever, whatever.. Hey lets talk about L Ron Hubbard! What do you say guys? I'll start. Then we'll talk about the Jesuits.. Then, then I'll cut and paste some other cool stuff. I'm getting all tingly. What was I saying about being stuck in habitual thought patterns?

Anonymous said...

LOL

http://www.hecklerspray.com/will-smiths-school-not-scientologist/200814998.php

so there!

Guy Faux said...

kewl

I like talking about L. Ron

Anonymous said...

Yeah, me too! Will smith AND scientology.. outstanding!

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Stop-Narconon/Baca/Scientology_and_Politics.html

Anonymous said...

M, Did you know the Jesuits sunk the Titanic? The Bastards!

Anonymous said...

MYSTERION sure posts on here a lot.

Mysterion said...

MYSTERION is the biggest fucking geek and nuisance on this comment section, consistently.

MYSTERION said...

MYSTERION

is

ruining

this

place

for

anyone

else

who

might

want

to

post

here.

Mysterion said...

Q: Question
A: Answer

Q: Question
A: Answer

Q: Question
A: Answer

No challenging authority.

Q: Question
A: Answer

Q: Question
A: Answer

Q: Question
A: Answer

No mystery.

Q: Question
A: Answer

Q: Question
A: Answer

Q: Question
A: Answer

No ambiguity.

Q: Question
A: Answer

Q: Question
A: Answer

Q: Question
A: Answer

Q: Question
A: Answer

Q: Question
A: Answer

Q: Question
A: Answer

No challenging authority.

Q: Question
A: Answer

Q: Question
A: Answer

Q: Question
A: Answer

No mystery.

Q: Question
A: Answer

Q: Question
A: Answer

Q: Question
A: Answer

No ambiguity.

Q: Question
A: Answer

Q: Question
A: Answer

Q: Question
A: Answer

Q: Question
A: Answer

Q: Question
A: Answer

Q: Question
A: Answer

No challenging authority.

Q: Question
A: Answer

Q: Question
A: Answer

Q: Question
A: Answer

No mystery.

Q: Question
A: Answer

Q: Question
A: Answer

Q: Question
A: Answer

No ambiguity.

Q: Question
A: Answer

Q: Question
A: Answer

Q: Question
A: Answer

Mysterion said...

A linguist friend of mine claims language is from nature. Chinese, he claims, is derived from migrating birds (e.g. duck quacks) while Japanese is based more uopn water sounds (e.g. rain, waves, rivers).

German:

to call a dog, slap hour knee with your hand (Hound - hund)

"woof" = wolf

he had 12 or 18 examples for each...

Plus action/object words

table ~ Japanese word for eating, etc...

Yes, the phonemes (sounds) are derived from nature - people parrot what they hear (of think they hear) and that parroting becomes language...

peo peo (pee-oh pee-oh = baby bird)

yes, he thinks people are just parrots with a bigger vocab.

What does THAT mean?

The fable would have gone better if you had spun it thus:

Why EAT money? There is more fiber in your bible.

Why weigh in with a demand for money?

Why go the way of money?

Which is it? (Or something else?)

I get it. W +1 = E
A = A
T + 1 = Y

EAT is correct.

you are messing with my type "o"s.

overstuffed... LOL

Playing dragon age and I hate it. It's as bad as mass effect. My problem is how grim and dead serious the world is, and how much time is spent in exposition in conversation, and how the graphics make it creeping lifelike.

I wish I could return it! Avoid!

My only problem with their games like Dragon Age is that they obviously try very hard to make everything appear lifelike but the CGI "actors" continually behave like scripted robots. Which, of course, is exactly what they are. For me, that breaks the immersion more than anything. They can make the graphics as photo-real as they want but if people don't act like people, the actual depth of the story is never going to be felt.

Mysterion said...

Mysterion

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Anonymous said...

I think mysterion has aspergers or something. It doesn't matter what is being discussed the dude can't stay on topic. He's like an idiot savant.

Brad Warner said...

Harry,

I agree with you about Jundo's criticisms of the Nishijima/Cross footnotes.

By "my teacher's very personal and particular interpretation of Dogen" I have to assume he is referring to Nishijima's ideas about the fourfold logical structure of the work. This way of reading Dogen isn't simply a personal bias, but the result of decades of working with the text.

He has written a very detailed explanation of this way of reading Shobogenzo, which is available as a free download at:

http://www.dogensangha.org/articles.htm#Understanding

This is the only bias I am aware of in his translation.

THOMAS AMUNDSEN said...

Wow! This was quite an enlightening post. Probably the most practically important post I've read on the blog.

Thanks, Brad!

Brad Warner said...

Anon 108 said:

I'll read the book (the forthcoming Nishijima trans of Nagarjuna's MMK) with interest...and some concern that, having misunderstood the Sanskrit, Gudo's version will be dismissed not only by "Sanskrit scholars" and "Buddhists" but by anyone with any prior knowledge of Nagarjuna's text. If that happens, it will certainly have been a mistake to publish the book as a translation. As such, it will do no good for Gudo's - or Brad's - rep, but only give support to those who see Gudo as odd-ball revisionist; the ANS/four views crank with the dysfunctional sangha. His life and work deserve more than that.

I don't think things are quite that dire.

I'm not sure why Nishijima's ideas about the ANS make him a "crank." It's just a way of trying to explain the effects of zazen practice not in metaphysical terms but by reference to science. And as I said in my previous comments his "four views" ideas about Shobogenzo are very clear and precise. You can read them for yourself if you like.

As for my rep, it's already in the toilet. So who cares at this point!

Brad Warner said...

And here's a piece expressing his "crank" views on the ANS:

http://www.dogensangha.org/ans.htm

Please pay particular attention to the opening paragraphs.

anon #108 said...

Thanks for the link Brad. I hope those who think Gudo is a crank - and I believe there are a few (hope I'm wrong, again) - read it.

(For the record and in case there's any misunderstanding, although I am a little concerned about the MMK thing, I don't find what Gudo has to say about Buddhism and zazen at all cranky - as I've often argued on this blog. As taught to me by one of his students, Gudo's approach to Buddhism is the one that finally made sense to me and helped me to change my life for the better).

anon said...

Barry Graham has been involved in at least eight encounters with the judicial system in Maricopa County alone since 1997. He has had five cases brought by three landlords, all involving rent payment. He has received a traffic citation and failed to appear resulting in a fine and loss of driving privileges. He has also been brought into Family Court by two women (names, ID and case numbers of the family court cases have been redacted here as a courtesy to the women involved). Here are the public records:

January 21, 1997 - Landlord

April 14, 1997 - Landlord

September 25, 1998 - Family Court

November 13, 2002 - Landlord

June 13, 2007 - Landlord

October 5, 2007 - Landlord

November 20, 2007 - Traffic Citation / Failure to Appear

May 29, 2009 - Family Court

Mysterion said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
anon #108 said...

All about...

CRANKS

john e mumbles said...

Huh, thought you were talking cartoonist S. Clay Wilson "bite my crank" cranks, ala Captain Pissgums...somehow disappointing...

L. Ron said...

Cranks

anon #108 said...

Yeah, I thought I might be raising expectations, John E. Sorry to disappoint.

I believe I may still have a Zap comic buried somewhere...or perhaps I dreamt it.

Anonymous said...

What is the sound of one hand clapping?

R said...

Re: - anonymous anonymous @ 11:32 am: -

Somewhat inaccurate:

Instead of “to let go of his beliefs” I’d say it should be - “to see the extent to which his thoughts and consequent views are disconnected from reality”.

Anonymous said...

20% discount code at Shambhala is LS01

john e mumbles said...

HELL YEAH, L. Ron!

Anonymous said...

Mysterion said...
Anonymous Anonymous said...
"Sheesh, are we still banging on about religions? Anyone would think you had a complex about it."

Many parents start their children out in life with a bullet between their eyes. That bullet is called a belief system (often a religion, but sometimes just other bullshit)

I remember in my youth I used to make these sorts of comments. Now I think things are not so clear cut. But the point is, why are you droning on about this on a Zen blog comment section?

Anonymous said...

Nishijima said: "Zazen is not a means to attain “enlightenment,” "

Gotama Buddha taught that the point of his practice was to attain nibbana and end rebirth. He was very clear on that point.

If Nishijima's zen is not about enlightenment then it is not really buddhism.

Mysterion said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Anonymous said...

All voting that Brad should disable the ability to post anonymously and with a name/url should be conducted anonymously.

Awakened Yeti said...

A major book-feeding insect is the book or paper louse (aka booklouse or paperlouse). A tiny (under 1 mm), soft-bodied wingless Psocoptera (usually Trogium pulsatorium), that actually feeds on microscopic molds and other organic matter found in ill-maintained works (e.g., cool, damp, dark, and undisturbed areas of archives, libraries, and museums), although they will also attack bindings and other book parts. It is not actually a true louse.

Many other insects, like the silverfish (Lepisma saccharina) or cockroach (various Blattodea), will consume these molds and also degraded paper or the starch-based binding pastes – warmth and moisture or high humidity are prerequisites, so damage is more common in the tropics. Modern glues and paper are less attractive to insects.

Two moths, Tineola bisselliella and Hofmannophila pseudospretella, will attack cloth bindings. Leather-bound books attract various other consumers, such as Dermestes lardarius and the larvae of Attagenus unicolor and Stegobium paniceum. The bookworm moth (Heliothis zea or H. virescens) and its larvae are not interested in books. The larvae are pests for cotton or tobacco growers as the cotton bollworm or tobacco budworm.

Bruno said...

Dear Brad,

Regarding Nishijima Roshi's translations, do you know if there is any difference between the paperback, Booksurge print and the hardcover Numata version? If there is, which one is better, in your opinion?

I have bought Takahashi's version, but as far as I have read, I prefer Nishijima's - basically because of the extensive footnotes and Japanese terms references. There is almost no Japanese words in Takahashi's translation, not even the chapter's names.

Have you read Nishijima's Japanese version? I am looking for a Jap version of Shobogenzo, but I have no idea of which one corresponds to the fascicle order we see in Nishijima's/Takahashi's version. (I bought one through amazon and the order was totally different, as well as the text. I think it is rewritten in modern Japanese and filled with personal comments from the author-translator.)

See you, and good luck with your body!

thibault halpern said...

You say that you bough a copy of this translation of Shobogenzo at $150. However, Amazon currently lists it at $1,000! Where and how can I obtain a copy at $150?

Honora said...

Goodness, there's so much useful data here!