Wednesday, November 03, 2010

LIVE ON THE WEB SATURDAY

This Saturday, November 6th at 4pm Pacific Standard Time (PST) I'll be giving a talk at San Francisco Zen Center's Zen Translation Forum as part of a program titled Dogen: Lost and Found in Translation. The program will be streamed live on the web starting at 2 pm PST with an introduction by Steve Stuckey, Abbot of San Francisco Zen Center.

The URL for the live stream is http://www.livestream.com/sfzc. The live stream will also include presentations by Mel Weitsman, Abbot of Berkeley Zen Center, a panel discussion led by Steven Heine and including William Bodiford, Taigen Dan Leighton and Susan Moon. There will be further presentations by Frederike Bossevain, Gaelyn Godwin of Houston Zen Center, Chozen and Hogen Bays and a live calligraphy auction by Kazuaki Tanahashi.

It should be fun. My presentation is titled "Dogen for Punks." It should stick out like a sore thumb among all the serious, scholarly stuff.

They're going to try and open it up to questions from the on-line audience. So try your luck and see if you can get through. My talk is going to be pretty short. So I suggest you get your comments in early.

After San Francisco I'm heading south to Los Angeles where I'm doing a busload of gigs.

•November 9, 2010 (Tues) 7 pm - Hill Street Center 237 Hill St., Santa Monica, CA 90405

•November 10, 2010 (Wed) 7 am (yes that’s 7 in the morning!) Dharma Zen Center 1025 S Cloverdale Ave Los Angeles, CA 90019-6733

•November 10, 2010 (Wed) 7:30 pm - Against The Stream 4300 Melrose Ave. Los Angeles, CA

•November 12 (Fri) - 7pm An Lac Buddhist Temple 901, S.Saticoy Avenue Ventura, CA 93004. $2 Donation.

•November 14, 2010 (Sun) 7pm - Bodhi Tree Bookstore 8585 Melrose Ave., Los Angeles, CA

Now that you've been told you have no excuse to miss any of them!

***

A lot of times when I talk about Zen to audiences made up mainly of people who don't know anything at all about Zen, I have to deal with deeply held misconceptions of what Zen is. Just last week I gave a talk in which I didn't even once mention the concept of non-attachment. When I started taking questions a guy said, "You're talking about detachment and I don't agree that people should try to be aloof and detached with no personal relationships. I think personal relationships even of a sexual nature can be very nurturing things that all human beings need, etc., etc."

If you want to know my opinion about this matter, I devote a chapter to it in my new book, Sex, Sin, and Zen: A Buddhist Exploration of Sex from Celibacy to Polyamory and Everything in Between. But any of you who have read anything I've written probably know that I am not sitting here trying to get people to give up all their personal relationships. And if you've even read just the Amazon description of my new book you know for sure I'm not telling people to give up sex!

The point I'm trying to make here is that even though I said nothing at all about having an aloof, detached attitude, this guy had heard a few things about Zen, assumed it was all about being detached, and went after me for what he perceived I was talking about. Although the subject had not come up at all, everything he heard from me was filtered through that lens.

It's interesting how this happens and it will probably be my life's work to untangle all the misconceptions of Zen practice I run into. I came across a book just the other day that said, "Surely the Buddha was right that love is the fountainhead of hurt and misery, suffering and despair. He also taught that life and love were not worth while." Oh boy!

Not that I'm the ace genius who knows the be all and end all of Zen. But some of the misconceptions out there are so vast and deep! Sometimes these misconceptions even lead people to think they can become Enlightened® in an hour...

Here's a song about that:

All Is One

See! I used to know how to program a drum machine!

Just some observations for now. See you this weekend on the Interwebs!

125 comments:

Airy said...

Yowz!

Anonymous said...

So there Harry!
Not one not two

OsamaVanHalen said...

The conference this Saturday at the SFZC sounds like it will be quite a Dogen pony show.

Brad Warner said...

Osama, that is funny.

OsamaVanHalen said...

From the link: "Join us here this weekend for a special gathering celebrating the release of Dogen Zenji's masterwork, newly translated by Kaz Tanahashi, Treasury of the True Dharma Eye: Zen Master Dogen's Shobo Genzo." I like Tanahashi's "Moon In A Dewdrop" and "Beyond Thinking" but I don't think I'm ready to spend $94 for the whole Shobogenzo. Amazon says that it's not available until July 2011 so maybe I'll either have a job by then or be ready to become a wandering homeless monk. I could use it as a pillow when I wasn't reading it.

Anonymous Bob said...

Brad, Really liked the interview with Darren Main.. It was a good one.

OsamaVanHalen said...

Brad, Please feel free to use that awful pun in your teisho on Saturday.

Anonymous said...

If my calculus is correct, 4pm PST is 2am Finnish time... any chance of this being viewable/downloadable after it's over in case I don't feel like staying up the whole night for it?

anon said...

Anon, What's the problem? Are you afraid you won't be able to finnish it?

Brock said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Seagal Rinpoche said...

Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way.

Vonnegut said...

CAT'S CRADLE

Anonymous said...

Great book, Kurt. Well done.

Zach said...

Hey Brad, I just got my copy of Kaz Tanahashi's new 2 hardcover book translation of Shobogenzo, I was wondering if you have gotten a chance to take a look at it yet... it's a pretty nice edition.

http://www.amazon.com/Treasury-True-Dharma-Eye-Master/dp/1590304748/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1288817566&sr=1-1

Also I was wondering why you don't like John Daido Loori's 300 koan Shobogenzo... I have heard you poo-poo it and I just wanted to know what you didn't like about it - I thought it was a pretty standard koan collection like Gateless Gate or Blue Cliff Record... it was a fairly interesting read though a bit over my head.

Anonymous said...

Brad dislikes Sanbo Kyodan, Zach. Plain and simple. He literally dislikes them all.

mtto said...

I really, really liked Loori's Zen and Creativity book. One of my music teachers was a student of his and one of my musical heroes (Gary Peacock) was a student of his.

but...

His version of Shinji Shobogenzo kind of sucks. The translations of the stories are awkward and the language of the commentary is written in such a way as to seem like it is translated from an ancient zen text, just like the actual translation. It is misleading and needlessly confusing. I think he missed the point.

The Nishijima, Luctchford, Pearson translation is much better, especially the commentary. If Loori's translation "went over your head", I would encourage you to check out this version. This is the version that Brad references in Sit Down and Shut Up.

Zach said...

hmmmmm...

I understand what you are saying, but Sanbo-kyodan folks and Rinzai folks would probably say the same thing when a Soto tries to talk about the meaning of a koan...
Yes, at the end of the day, after reading a Soto study of a koan I would have(no doubt)a really good understanding.... but, I don't know if the understanding of the koan would help much in dokusan with a Rinzai/Sanbo - Kyodan teacher you know...

The most my "understanding" would get me would probably be a smile and a ringing of the bell for me to leave the dokusan room...:)

mtto said...

Well Zach, are you looking to deepen your practice, or pass a test?

Also, it is Dogen's koan collection, so I don't know why the Rinzai perspective would be more important than the Soto one.

Zach said...

Well, Soto monks did do Rinzai style koan practice... until Gento Sokuchu came along...:)

So is that the reason then? Just sectarian reasons...?

I dunno.
I'm not trying to start an argument, I just wanted Brad's opinion.

Harry said...

The Loori translation gives me the Zen Creeps too (the commentary seems a bit contrived), but it's good to have to compare/contrast with Nishijima/Luetchford/Pearson, and there's much of merit in it IMO.

It's on google books:

http://tinyurl.com/268q8u5

Regards,

Harry.

p.s. Airy, I like the cut of your jib.

CAPTCHA: puritypo

108 the merciless said...

Seagal: I think you've hit the wall. Repeating yourself and all.. Are you just a bot or senile?

Zach said...

Heh... this is an interesting article about Dogen and his relationship with Koan practice.:)

http://www.mro.org/mr/archive/24-2/articles/dogenandkoansdaido.html

anon #108 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
anon #108 said...

I forgot - JDL not only gives his own Capping Verse for each Koan, but also a Commentary and notes - all in standard Zen-speak. If it works for you, as a lone reader, without JDL to engage with in RL dokusan, fine. But I can't help wondering what nets and cages Loori's readers are being encouraged to ensnare themselves in while they sit at home pondering all this second-hand crypto-zen.

I don't like it ;)

Zach said...

Whoo... :)

Ok... but was this Brad's disagreement with JDL's translation?
I'm now fairly clear on yours...;)

mtto said...

Hi zach,

Brad told me about Loori's translation before I saw it myself. I don't want to speak for him, and if you really want him to answer your question directly you can email him, however he told me something similar to what I wrote above. I respect Brad's opinion when it comes to Dogen but, as I wrote, I really liked the one book of Loori's I'd read, so I wanted to see for myself.

I think calling this a sectarian disagreement is a cop-out and ignores the substance of the argument either way. Maybe it is a sectarian disagreement, but why? Regarding what?

proulx michel said...

Zach said...

.... but, I don't know if the understanding of the koan would help much in dokusan with a Rinzai/Sanbo - Kyodan teacher you know...

From all I've heard, SK and Rinzai koan dokusan are based upon a standard book of answers;

About that, I'd recommend the hilarious short story by JL Borgès, entitled "Pierre Menard, Author of the Quixote"
see also
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre_Menard,_Author_of_the_Quixote

R said...

Brad, what I would do about the phenomenon you were relating to, which you might quite likely guess I liked the mentioning of, is to open a talk by referring just to that. I don't know when and where you talk, (else then on SFZC, I hear you got some discussion with a guy by the name of Garry or Barry Birkham or something on Saturday - about Zach's BT I think, or maybe I got it wrong, never mind really) and how practical this is, but if you can make people see this, - in a way this may be the most essential thing for a start. No?


Else - now you're one with all the people you don't want to be one with. (Genpo included)

I'd sue Gudo.

29 said...

BSD, I don't know why I've written BT.

Zach said...

Ok I'll bite, what is Zach's BT... Or BSD?:)

... said...

Serious?

- And I'v got one for you - try and Google - “may every copy burn in hell”.

R said...

And I'm out for the day today too.

Zach said...

proulx michel said:
"From all I've heard, SK and Rinzai koan dokusan are based upon a standard book of answers..."

As a SK practitioner, I can tell you with a high degree of certainty that what you heard is false.:)

There was published in the 60's-70's (not sure about the date) a book with "answers" to the koans in the Gateless Gate"... And for the koan Mu, the answer was to respond to the question by taking a big breath and yelling "MUUUUUU!!!" Back in those days it was an inside joke as to who read the book... because people would have to stifle laughter whenever they heard a faint yell of MU coming from the dokusan room... followed immediately by the ringing of the bell.:)

As far as Koan study... and memorizing answers is concerned, I think that's a Soto thing... As in the Shuso dharma combat ceremony for instance...

Zach said...

mtto said:
"I think calling this a sectarian disagreement is a cop-out and ignores the substance of the argument either way. Maybe it is a sectarian disagreement, but why? Regarding what?

Regarding the very different ways that the SK/Rinzai folks view koans as opposed to the way Soto folks view koans...
Soto folks look at koans as something to study, like class type stuff... there is a meaning, you figure out the meaning, talk about it, go to the next one. It's like a history and a philosophy class mixed up.
Rinzai/SK folks take up koans as something to practice in zazen, to identify personally with the koan... To use to realize their "true nature"...

So when Soto folks hear Rinzai interpretations of koans... they get all ruffled up, because they think Rinzai/SK folks are deluded.

And Rinzai/SK folks hear Soto folks intellectualizing koans, and they roll their eyes and think that they missed the point altogether.

These reactions are so common they are almost expected.

Anonymous said...

108 the merciless said...

Seagal: I think you've hit the wall. Repeating yourself and all.. Are you just a bot or senile?

He's not repeating himself. He's repeating Kurt Vonnegut without attribution, aka plagiarism.

Anonymous said...

He is repeating himself, he used the same quote a blog or three back.

Anonymous said...

Don't let these haters stop you from teaching, Rinpoche Seagal. I find your words both timely and inspiring.

Kevin said...

In a suicide girls article from 2008, Brad wrote about Barry Graham amongst a group of recommeded zen centers. Here is the suicide girls article: http://suicidegirls.com/news/culture/23057/

"SITTING FROG ZEN SANGHA
Phoenix, Arizona
I’ve never been here either, but Rev. Dogo Barry Graham, its founder, has been a penpal (e-mail pal?) for several years and we hung out when I visited the Arizona Zen Buddhist Society a while back. Barry maintains a very cool blog too. He tells really good dirty jokes."


Something's not adding up here.

Zach said...

Yeeowch!

Now that IS a tad embarassin'...!

Anonymous said...

They're friends, that explains his reluctance to call him out "by name" etc.

Anonymous said...

Jesus, have you read this dudes opinions?

Nor was Dogen’s Soto Zen not influenced by Chinese Zen, especially Silent Illumination in which sitting dominates, a practice not found in the Buddhist canon and one especially criticized by other Chinese Zen schools. In many respects, one can say of Dogen’s Zen it is a departure from the Buddhism found in the Pali and Mahyana canons. The assertion by Dogen that “Death and life are the very life of the Buddha” is not something the Buddha ever said nor implied.

Enter cautiously into Japanese Soto Zen.


http://zennist.typepad.com/zenfiles/2010/11/more-dogen-avec-croissants-and-coffee.html

and yes, that dude IS serious. Dark Zennist, uh

anon said...

Kevin, I agree that Brad should have mentioned recommending Barry to his readers. But he exchanges e-mails with lots of people. I don't think you can say they were exactly buddies.

Anonymous said...

"I don't think you can say they were exactly buddies"

...or that Brad knew of anything non-kosher about BG back then...or that Brad remembers his 32-month old suicide girls recommendation, one of eleven in that article...or that Brad needs to apologise for it now.

Let's jump to a few more conclusions. And let's extend the witch-hunt to anyone who has heard of BG and hasn't denounced him. What fun we'll have! What good we'll do!

Work out your own salvation. Do not depend on others.

gniz said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
108 the merciless said...

Kevin is like a scorned lover man.. He's Lorena Bobbitt and J. Edgar Hoover rolled into one. He will cut you down in second if you were friendly to the evil Graham. Dude is a zen pitbull.

Anonymous said...

Kevin,
Relax a little bit, man. Your intentions seem cool about B.G. but don't get too nutty and obsessed about it.

Zach said...

Uhhh.... Kevin just said the whole thing was "not adding up" - direct your snide remarks to the anons.

(and to the anons who didn't respond with a snide remark, the above was not directed to you.)

Sorry guys, but doesn't anyone else think it a little ironic that Kevin is doing EXACTLY what Brad said.... you gotta do your OWN homework on a prospective teacher... and in the course of his homework collecting all the info on Barry Graham he finds an endorsement by Brad about Barry Graham!

Anonymous said...

good point.... it's just been a little overwhelming how much has come out about this guy in the last 2 weeks.

108 the snide said...

Zach, Kevin was a little more merciful to Brad here than he was on his own blog.

Airy said...

L

Anonymous said...

Is James Ford Roshi talking about Brad?

Sunday, October 31, 2010

It's All in Your Head: A Meditation on Blaming the Victim as a Spiritual Practice


Thinking your thinking shifts the universe in any significant way is silly. Until you tell someone else their thinking led to their distress. Then it becomes evil.

A hard word. But the right one.

And it doesn't matter who tells you otherwise. New Age pundit. Zen Buddhist teacher. They say you create the universe inside your head in some literal way, and they're full of fecal matter, spouting the great brown stuff out of their mouths.

http://monkeymindonline.blogspot.com/2010/10/its-all-in-your-head-meditation-on.html

Brad Warner said...

Wow. That IS embarrassing!

No. I did not remember listing Sitting Frog Zendo on a Suicide Girls article.

This is why I no longer recommend Zen teachers. At that time (and now) people were always asking me where they should go to study Zen. As I have said about a zillion times here & in books & elsewhere, I'm really not connected with the Zen scene. I only know a handful of teachers well.

I'm guessing that the Brad Warner who existed two years ago was doing his best to try to accommodate all those "where should I study Zen?" questions and come up with a list. He included Mr. Graham because he had a passing acquaintance with him and, at the time, the guy seemed all right.

What I said about Sitting Frog and Barry Graham is the sum total of everything I knew at the time. I think that's pretty clear in the listing.

As George W. Bush said, "Fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can't get fooled again." In other words, having been burned like this in the past I now only recommend people I've actually spent a lot of time with. Which means if you're in Akron, Tokyo, San Francisco, Cedar Rapids, Milwaukee or Houston I can recommend a Zen teacher for you. Otherwise you're on your own.

This also dovetails into the reason why I don't want to publicly denounce Mr. Graham now. It's quite evident to me that I was being used by someone who wanted me to vouch for his legitimacy. He was successful. I was stupid.

Now other people want to use me to vouch for that same person's illegitimacy. They want to use my fame (such as it is) for their purposes just like he did.

But I think the people who are wanting me to denounce Mr. Graham are already doing a fine job of it and do not need my help.

I've already played more of a role in this story than I wanted to. So I'm getting out while the getting's good.

If you don't like that, I'm sorry.

R said...

If you click on "very cool blog", on either Brad's SG article or Kevin's quote of it in his blog, it says: "You can rename your account with this username". I thought Kevin might be interested in doing that.

Brad Warner said...

Airy, I saw that James Ford piece. If he's talking about what I wrote then he's taking it in a very, very, very, very different way from what I intended.

I think I was clear that I do NOT think blaming the victim is ever a good idea. If not then I'll say it: Blaming the victim is never a good idea. Ever. Nope.

And you don't create the universe in your head. Nope. It's out there. It really is. Zen is not solipsism.

55 said...

As I understand it, Brad is saying, I'm too famous, - if I say something, it will go down too heavy. I can't maneuver it - so I keep out.

- I think he's said enough, in his last post and on an earlier one when he said - "that's when you need the BSD". Though I don't see why he said nothing earlier.

- Perhaps because Gary Birkham was saying things about him it might later be possible to present it as if he was trying to getting back at him, and maybe he wanted to avoid that too.

56 said...

trying to get back

Anonymous said...

to where you once belonged?

57 said...

I never belonged anywhere.

Rinpoche’s ghost said...

What was that question again?

Nobody told me there would be days like these.

Anonymous said...

Do you believe in A-Bob’s captchas?

Chad Werner said...

Yogācāra discourse is founded on the existential truth of the human condition: there is nothing that humans experience that is not mediated by mind.

Seagal Rinpoche said...

Fucking trolls.

H [aka Anonymous Anonymous Anonymous] said...

Is it BG fighting back? Look out Rinpoche. You never know.

Zach said...

Brad, honestly man... no worries.
(as least as I see it...)

Kevin is doing a great job documenting EVERYTHING and putting it up on it's own website, so that prospective and current students of Graham can find a reason to get themselves out of that situation.

Barry Graham said...

I'm not a big fan of Kevin.

Daniel said...

Heyya Brad - Are we ever going to see you up here in the Pacific Northwest?

Brad Warner said...

I will come to the Pacifc Northwest as soon as someone steps forward to help work out the logistics. Lots of people there ask, but so far nobody has taken the actual steps necessary to make it happen.

Yolanda, be cool! said...

Kevin is a good guy.. He just has to resist the temptation to go all tabloid.

Kevin, You're doing good work but just stick to the facts. Leave the harsh remarks to the comments section. If you feel you must speculate, be cool!.. You see what Brad said about the situation @10:47? He pretty much hung Barry out to dry without really trying. It was totally awesome. The facts will speak for themselves.

Kevin said...

Thanks Yolanda, I'll work on it...

Awakened Yeti said...

I guess I sorta lied when I said its not that bad. That dog, that cat, that little tiny man.

Anonymous said...

Seagal Rinpoche say:
Wife who put husband in doghouse soon find him in cathouse.

Blah said...

Blah Blah Barry Graham Blah Blah

BBBBGBB said...

Bery Boring

Alice said...

Greg Brady

RAW said...

And you don't create the universe in your head. Nope. It's out there. It really is.

Dogma? Zen should open your mind, not close it.

Time for some Huang Po!! said...

All the Buddhas and all sentient beings are nothing but the One Mind, beside which nothing exists. This Mind, which is without beginning, is unborn and indestructible. It is not green nor yellow, and has neither form nor appearance. It does not belong to the categories of things which exist or do not exist, nor can it be thought of in terms of new or old. It is neither long nor short, big nor small, for it transcends all limits, measure, names, traces and comparisons. It is that which you see before you – begin to reason about it and you at once fall into error. It is like the boundless void which cannot be fathomed or measured. The One Mind alone is the Buddha, and there is no distinction between the Buddha and sentient things, but that sentient beings are attached to forms and so seek externally for Buddhahood. By their very seeking they lose it, for that is using the Buddha to seek for the Buddha and using mind to grasp Mind. Even though they do their utmost for a full aeon, they will not be able to attain it. They do not know that, if they put a stop to conceptual thought and forget their anxiety, the Buddha will appear before them, for this Mind is the Buddha and the Buddha is all living beings. It is not the less for being manifested in ordinary beings, nor is it greater for being manifest in the Buddhas.

Mysterion said...

Sea Gull Rim Shotie:

I have no "murderous resentment."

I came by my ignorance the old fashioned way - I was born with it.

A baby is NOT a clean slate.

A baby is a baby.

Mysterion said...

Seagal Rinpoche is reading:

"The Yellow River"

by I. P. Freely

bluejay said...

M said: "I came by my ignorance the old fashioned way - I was born with it."
bluejay said no argument M..

Ran [- 80] said...

Kevin, in case you missed mine @ 10:54 pm, in case anybody looking for YKW will find you, that may be more than you ask for.

R said...

And Zach @ 3:36 pm - “Soto monks did do Rinzai style koan practice”: - (- “until Gento Sokuchu came along”)

Could you refer? - I have never heard anything of this before.

I thought koan practice in the Soto sect only began with Harada Roshi. (Of Hoshin-ji)

Anonymous said...

Finnish anon here,

I asked and was answered. The SFZC stream will be available on demand after the event at the same url in livestreams.com. So no need to skip sleep for the folks abroad.

Anonymous said...

Hosshin-ji

Anonymous said...

where you once belonged?

85 said...

I said...

Rinpoche’s ghost said...

Seems to me like you're repeating yourselves.

87 said...

No, we’re not.

Rinpoche’s flying circus said...

Well, - it sure seems like repeating yourselves to me.

89 said...

Have it your way, I'm not gonna argue.

Rinpoche’n all said...

Well, - you are arguing, aren't you?

R said...

How in the world you’re gonna see, laughing at fools like me.

Anonymous said...

CPBD 076: Stephen Batchelor – Secular Buddhism

http://commonsenseatheism.com/?p=10556#comment-75242



gassho

Anonymous said...

?

Anonymous said...

...

95 said...

Oh, no!!!

R’s G said...

...

Anonymous said...

5:04 pm.

Anonymous said...

When will the Nagarjuna (Nishijima/Warner translation) book be available?

john e mumbles said...

Mysterion @ 9:47 PM, that joke is old enough to vote...for Nixon.

Airy said...

Primo! 100

OsamaVanHalen said...

http://www.snagfilms.com/films/title/how_to_cook_your_life/

Zach said...

R said:
"And Zach @ 3:36 pm - “Soto monks did do Rinzai style koan practice”: - (- “until Gento Sokuchu came along”)

Could you refer? - I have never heard anything of this before.

I thought koan practice in the Soto sect only began with Harada Roshi. (Of Hoshin-ji)"



SURE!:)

from wiki pages...

The Soto sect has a strong historical connection with kōans many kōan collections were compiled by Soto priests. During the 13th century, Dōgen, founder of the Soto sect in Japan, compiled some 300 kōans in the volumes known as the Greater Shōbōgenzō. Other kōan collections compiled and annotated by Soto priests include The Iron Flute (Japanese: Tetteki Tosui, compiled by Genro in 1783) and Verses and Commentaries on One Hundred Old Cases of Tenchian (Japanese: Tenchian hyakusoku hyoju, compiled by Tetsumon in 1771.) However, according to Michael Mohr, "...kōan practice was largely expunged from the Soto school through the efforts of Gento Sokuchu (1729–1807), the eleventh abbot of Entsuji, who in 1795 was nominated abbot of Eiheiji".

Also - there is this: Dogen's Manuals of Zen Meditation

http://books.google.com/books?id=dw0IdBImyRYC&pg=PA152&lpg=PA152&dq=Dogen+and+rinzai&source=bl&ots=26c0GWtrH8&sig=ySHU7pD2l1gXjUfGbbK7BeqvbKU&hl=en&ei=eGfVTNO-McH7lwevluWACQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBMQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Dogen%20and%20rinzai&f=false

Page 152/53 (also read the small footnotes at the bottom of the page)

Basically, the Soto school has inherited a lot of not so old prejudices...

(there is a lot of this sort of thing out there... scholars today agree that the Soto/Rinzai beef has been overstated... Why else do you think that the early founders of the Sanbo-Kyodan were Soto monks?)

Zach said...

And from my experience...
Rinzai/SK teachers speak of Dogen in pretty glowing terms.
The way Dogen talks about the various koans in his Shobogenzo, Rinzai/SK teachers see it as teisho's - the highly symbolic poetics you could find in any koan collection.

In the words of Dr Evil - "...we are not so different you and i Mr Powers..." ^^

Mysterion said...

HERE is the background article.

"Tanahashi, who now lives in Berkeley, will be joined next weekend by an impressive array of scholars, artists and poets gathering in San Francisco for a series of public events celebrating the book's publication. There will be meditation instructions and a film about Dogen at the Zen Center, a panel and musical performance at Fort Mason Center, and a meditation and Sunday dharma talk (Buddhist sermon) at Green Gulch Farm at Muir Beach. (For a list of events, go to www.sfzc.org/ztf.)

"Treasury of the True Dharma Eye" (Shambhala Publications; $150) is a monumental accomplishment, bringing together Dogen's essays on the essence of Buddhist teaching and detailed instructions on how to meditate or lead a monastic life, not to mention this medieval monk's paradoxical ponderings on the nature of time and space. "

R said...

Thanks, Zach.

Though you understand I am interested in the actual practice of considering a koan during zazen.

It seems to me really stupid (or in the least strange, since the claim is raised by men I could hardly imagine to be stupid) to conclude from the fact that Dogen wanted people and particularly his disciples to understand the stories used as koans, that he was in favor of the practice itself.

Even Christ would have wanted people to understand the stories in the Bible. It doesn't mean he was in support of koan practice.

It seems one has to be really insincere to raise such a claim.

I've had a look at your link and I'll look at it further later. I am an ESL and I might need to do some dictionarying. Though some the claims do not seem very convincing. It seems to me very difficult to call Menzan prejudiced. I read some of his stuff and it seems to be what I like, though this is beside the point.

If you have anything else, - I’d be interested.

Who Knew? said...

Ran is ESL? Who knew? Guess his first language is "Retarded."

R said...

I've written the last one before I saw your last one.

Well, of course Dogen's power of expression was great.

Though it kind of seems to me he's written the SS just for himself to use for lecturing and writing and not necessarily as something he intended to have published.

Otherwise how come nobody knew anything about it for so long?

R said...

Thanks anon. I guess you speak for your self. Though I didn't get the joke. Hope you got mine.

R said...

And one other thing Zach, if I think whose opinion I'd be interested in as for what you posted, it'd be Mike Cross. I think there’s an e-mail address at his blog. Perhaps I'll try and see what he has to say.


- And one other unrelated thing, - if I try and think [- which I did] who would I ask about all the things brad has to say about Genpo, - it'd be Nishijima. Nothing to do with the fact he has anything to do with Brad. But I could hardly suppose he'd say anything about it.

R said...

night

.

Zach said...

Also worth looking at R

Middle of page 245

http://books.google.com/books?id=rybA2bCzdNkC&pg=PA245&lpg=PA245&dq=Gento+Sokuchu+koans&source=bl&ots=QCBNQ1CEWw&sig=GZfsBNhHOsME8udkyXOoFMzKSvc&hl=en&ei=UITVTIX1OYeglAfkmPD8CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&sqi=2&ved=0CCMQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=Gento%20Sokuchu%20koans&f=false


Did you read the footnotes from the other book i linked - Dogen's Manuals of Zen Meditation where it has Dogen's successor Keizan advising the use of Koan as an object in meditation?

Anonymous said...

Hey, wait a second! I thought it was going to be 2pm PST but it's starting right now!

Harry said...

Anyone who is interested in deconstructing the latter day polarized myth of Soto vs Rinzai, and the not-so-latter day reasons as to maybe why these differences were originally assigned retrospectively, could do worse than flicking through John McRae's 'Seeing Through Zen'. The book has it's problems and questionable moments, but it presents a useful perspective on how lineage and the mirage of a continuity of weighty 'lineage tradition' is often implied retrospectively on what is really a more complex history.

It's all about validating things with the 'lineage' brand. We seem to need and prize this... eh, Dogo?

Regards,

Harry.

Anonymous said...

Do go on!

anon #108 said...

Hey Brad -

Been watching the SFZC Dogen translation bash online. Just saw your spot.

Very good job :)

Anonymous said...

Hi Brad,
your talk was great!
Regina

Anonymous said...

Out of Ways
--The Dead Left

Keizan said...




Did you read the footnotes from the other book i linked - Dogen's Manuals of Zen Meditation where it has Dogen's successor Keizan


Ah, this is not quite right. Koans were always important in Soto Zen, but that is not the same as Kanna Zen. In Zazen Yojinki, Keizan recommends focusing on a Koan uring Zazen ... ONLY when one is having trouble to settle down. It is just one item in a pretty long list.

If your mind is disturbed [during Zazen], rest it on the tip of the nose or below the navel and count your inhaled and exhaled breath. If your mind still is not calm, take a Koan and concentrate on it. For example consider these non-taste the stories: "Who is this that comes before me?" (Hui-neng); "Does a dog have Buddha nature?" (Chao-chou); Yun men's Mt Sumeru and Chao-chou's oak tree in the garden. These are available applications. If your mind is still disturbed, sit and concentrate on the moment your breath has stopped and both eyes have closed forever, or on the unborn state in your mother's womb or before one thought arises. If you do this, the two Sunyatas (non-ego) will emerge, and the disturbed mind will be put at rests.

When you arise from meditation and unconsciously take action, that action is itself a Koan. Without entering into relation, when you accomplish practice and enlightenment, the Koan manifests itself. State before the creation of heaven and earth, condition of empty kalpa, and wondrous functions and most important thing of Buddhas and patriarchs - all these are one thing, zazen.

We must quit thinking dualistically and put a stop to our delusive mind, cool our passions, transcend moment and eternity, make our mind like cold ashes and withered trees, unify meditation and wisdom like a censer in an old shrine, and purify body and mind like a single white strand. I sincerely hope that you will do all this.

http://www.zenki.com/Keizan01.htm

Zach said...

Yes Koan study is a "2nd place" to the winner shikentaza.

But the point is that it was used in Soto Zen and not completely without merit, as orthodox Soto like to think. IMO it informs Dogen.:)

Koan PRACTICE - as opposed to koan STUDY.

I love this:
"When you arise from meditation and unconsciously take action, that action is itself a Koan. Without entering into relation, when you accomplish practice and enlightenment, the Koan manifests itself. State before the creation of heaven and earth, condition of empty kalpa, and wondrous functions and most important thing of Buddhas and patriarchs - all these are one thing, zazen."

Zach said...

heh - shud b Koan practice there at the top...:)

Brad Warner said...

I'm gonna post an entry about the Dogen Translation forum soon. But for now here is one from a unique and interesting perspective:

http://karunatanahashi.blogspot.com/2010/11/i-am-your-biggest-fan.html?spref=fb

Jared said...

RE: Kevin @ 1:03 PM (yeah I know I'm a little late...)

Perhaps you have said so elsewhere, but I am curious: why are you so keen on trying to point out a connection between Brad and BG? Do you believe Brad should have known BG was a bogus teacher? Do you think he should have thoroughly researched him before mentioning him in his blog post/article? I think it is entirely possible that every single one of us has a photo lurking around facebook or elsewhere featuring us posing with someone who later on turned out to be an unsavory character. As you have said before, BG seems to be a slippery character, so why do you seem surprised if Brad was also hoodwinked the few times he met BG? Just curious.

Anonymous said...

"Do you believe Brad should have known BG was a bogus teacher?"

Yeah, I'd (mistakenly!) guess that a
good Zen teacher would have a better
bullshit detector than your Average Joe.

Yet another shattered belief...

Anonymous said...

Science Saved My Soul.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6w2M50_Xdk&feature=player_embedded



My Spirituality as an Atheist

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2nfXfTg92E

Anonymous said...

The Great Debate Panel: Sam Harris, Steven Pinker, Peter Singer, Patricia Chuchland...
Part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ScMJEVoj-s

The Great Debate Panel: Sam Harris, Steven Pinker, Peter Singer, Patricia Chuchland...
Part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSz8kDRrdpk

The Great Debate Panel: Sam Harris, Steven Pinker, Peter Singer, Patricia Chuchland...
Part 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ryQCoWXCnCQ

Sam Harris - The Great Debate: Can Science Tell us Right From Wrong?
(1)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUxxZqynsBM

Steven Pinker - The Great Debate: Can Science Tell us Right From Wrong?
(2)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fbplK-J5IA&feature=related



Sam Harris - The Moral Landscape - 2010 Texas Book Festival -
Part 1-5 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xt7AGv-RNGM

Sam Harris - The Moral Landscape - 2010 Texas Book Festival -
Part 2-5 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Br06B3yJNyc&feature=related

Sam Harris - The Moral Landscape - 2010 Texas Book Festival -
Part 3-5 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xvRRwtSZW18&feature=related

Sam Harris - The Moral Landscape - 2010 Texas Book Festival -
Part 4-5 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=diCv9d1A3ro&feature=related

Sam Harris - The Moral Landscape - 2010 Texas Book Festival -
Part 5-5 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LG8lsVTMvr8&feature=related