Wednesday, February 24, 2010

CAR CHASE AKRON 1983


If you're viewing on Facebook it's http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPT4eaFuUEc

I just discovered this piece of awesomeness. It's apparently from a very low budget action movie shot in Akron, Ohio in 1980 and released in '83. This is what Akron looked like when Zero Defex was going strong and I was first discovering Zen. How did I ever make it out alive?

And don't forget part two:




The waterfall-like thingy is right around the corner from where I used to live. I spent a lot of time there. Never saw guys karate fighting in the water, though.

For Facebook people the link is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQmQX79HMnQ

308 comments:

1 – 200 of 308   Newer›   Newest»
Anonymous said...

One!

Brad always posts a new thread fast if Jundo posts something.

Anonymous said...

I think this Jundo-Circus is only in your head,Buddy....

Don´t waste your time.

China Krys Darrington said...

Brad, that is AWESOME. I was here (Akron) too. Wait, I still am... Thanks for posting. And...Akron will "keep the light on for ya'"

Khesret said...

Badass. In the process of reading your books, BTW, Brad. They've been helpful in the extreme, and provided timely motivation to get off my lazy ass and get back to practice. Thanks for the kick in the rump! (My captcha, incidentally, for those who like to keep up, is "lardless," which is something I ain't.)

Smoggyrob said...

Hi everyone:

I disagree with Brad in that I like online sanghas. I like them in the same way that I like zen books, blogs, forums, and youtube videos. But I absolutely agree that people are likely to use online groups as a substitute for the real thing. I would bet that ninety percent of online cybersanghars live within an hour of a sitting group.

Jundo. I told myself I would post the following whenever he played in this sandbox. Nishijima Roshi has strongly and consistently disagreed with Jundo whenever he's said anything about Buddhism. He asked Jundo to leave Dogen Sangha. That's enough for me to not trust Jundo as a teacher. There is no such thing as revocation of dharma transmission, but there is such a thing as a mistake. I respect Nishijima greatly, but I believe giving Jundo transmission was a great mistake. I don't think Japanese culture holds dharma transmission in high enough regard.

There is a difference between someone speaking from their own experience and someone talking about an idea they have, and Jundo always strikes me firmly as the latter. I find him formulaic (one, not two!) and glaringly idealistic. Treeleaf is a typical romantic, new-agey, lovey-dovey group glossing over and trying to repress the same greed, hatred, and delusion as everyone else. You can't think or want your way out of this shit. Life is too short, and I would advise anyone to find a real teacher, and people to sit with.


Rob

Mysterion said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Anonymous said...

Nishijima Roshi has strongly and consistently disagreed with Jundo whenever he's said anything about Buddhism.

It's a good thing Jundo doesn't say anything about the 4 noble truths, 8 fold path, impermanence or the importance of zazen. Gudo, I'm sure would totally disagree because Jundo said it.

There's a tradition in zen that the student isn't worthy to succeed his teacher unless the student surpasses his teacher. It might be that Gudo was duped into giving Jundo transmission and Jundo is a totally deluded asshole. OR it may be that Jundo's insight is greater than his teachers' now.

He asked Jundo to leave Dogen Sangha. That's enough for me to not trust Jundo as a teacher.

Because you apparently regard Gudo as infallible? He can make a mistake by giving dharma transmission, but can't be mistaken when he disagrees with Jundo or asks him to leave Dogen Sangha?

There is no such thing as revocation of dharma transmission, but there is such a thing as a mistake.

I agree. See above.

I don't think Japanese culture holds dharma transmission in high enough regard.

I think western zen students hold dharma xmission in too high regard. The japanese zen teachers routinely give xmission to family or friends.

If I had to choose between Gudo, Jundo or Brad as a teacher, I'd pick Jundo hands-down.

Anonymous said...

Rob -

I'm not a member of Treeleaf but I stop by now and again.

It's not my impression that "Treeleaf is a typical romantic, new-agey, lovey-dovey group..." Even if Jundo does tend towards that mode of expression (I think it's "not one, not two" - and it gets on my nerves too), quite a few of the regulars are, without doubt, no-nonsense BS-callers.

Has Nishijima 'consistently' disagreed with Jundo? - I can recall Gudoblog exchanges that were very positive...until recently. And we only get to hear of/read a tiny part of what's gone on.

If Jundo strikes you as someone who's taking about something he's read rather than experienced, that's your impression, fair enough. It's not mine. It's not so difficult to experience zazen. Pretty impossible to do it and not experience it, I'd say. Yes, he reads a lot...not a bad thing.

I wonder if we can just stop doing this- stoking the Jundo/Brad fire? I really don't believe it helps. I've only chipped in to question what appeared to be some sweeping, negative assumptions. If you don't like it; if it doesn't speak or ring true to you, then - like those who don't like Brad - don't go there.

Jundo's not my thing either, but I don't think it's useful to dismiss him, his project and all the people who hang out there quite as summarily as you have.

taro said...

Looks like a cool flick.. I picked out Gabe Kaplan fighting Carrot-top early in the movie.

Funny, Akron looks a lot like Durham NC..

Mr. Reee said...

Today's Question: Online sanghas--Zen Escape Pods or Digital Transmissions of Dharma?

You decide.

Anonymous said...

How come any subject Brad posts about spins straight off in the comments into a random direction?

I blame Jundo! (Damn!...got me at it now!)

Anonymous said...

Jundo. I told myself I would post the following whenever he played in this sandbox. Nishijima Roshi has strongly and consistently disagreed with Jundo whenever he's said anything about Buddhism

Nishijima is now a senile old man who writes like this, thinks it makes sense, and becomes angry very easily.

3. Sect Future, Sect Past, and Sect Secular,

Are not manifesting themselves actually in front of us already.

Sect Future, Sect Past, and Sect Secular, should be manifesting themselves already in
front of us.

But actually speaking, such kinds of examples, which should appear exactly, have never
appear itself yet at all.


For reference, Kalupahana has:

The view that I existed in the past is not appropriate, for whatever was in the previous birth, he, indeed, is not identical with his person.

Garfield has:

To say "I was in the past" is not tenable. What existed in the past is not indentical to this one.

ovenmoe said...

anon: Brad posted a car chase vid.. What are we supposed to talk about?

Anonymous said...

Garfield has:

To say "I was in the past" is not tenable. What existed in the past is not indentical to this one.

Odie has:

To say "I was in the pound" is not tenable. What existed in the pound is not this one"

While Jon has:

To say "I was smoking weed" is not tenable. What existed in the....now what was I saying?

Mysterion said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Brad Warner said...

I was unable to find the quote from MMK that Anon at 9:56 posted. But I believe it may be an early version of verse 1 of chapter 27. This was rewritten as follows:

[Future Sect, Past Sect, Secular Sect, and Reality Sect, are the doctrines.
Among them, the Future Sect believes in eternity (relying upon the god Vishnu,), the Past Sect believes in determinism (relying upon the god Shiva,) the Secular Sect affirms secular morals, but the Reality Sect relies upon reality itself. ]

--- In the Ancient India, the Future Sect, which believed in the eternity of the god Vishṇu, the Past Sect, which believed in determinism (represented by the god Shiva), the Secular Sect, which affirmed secular morality to a certain extent, and the Reality Sect, which relied upon reality itself, were examples of religious groups. It seems that Någårjuna criticized the former three, but he did not say so much about the last one, though his attitude even in the first verse seems to be affirmative. ---


The introduction to the chapter goes into much greater detail regarding why Nishijima Roshi chose the rather unusual designations "Future Sect," "Past Sect," "Secular Sect" and "Reality Sect." In short he believed these would be more readily understandable to contemporary Western readers than the terms Nagarjuna used which referred to Indian belief systems readers of his time would have been familar with. Other translators have similarly truncated these ideas, most have condensed them much more than Nishijima has.

The rewrite above was the result of literally years of back-and-forth between the two of us with me trying to express what Nishijima Roshi wanted to say as clearly as possible in English (obviously not this verse alone!).

Having lived in Japan and learned the language I can say with absolute confidence that an inability to express complex philosophical ideas clearly in a language remotely different from the one you grew up with is not evidence of senility.

Furthermore in over a decade of almost daily interactions with Nishijima Roshi I have only seen him become angry two times. Once was when a resident of his dojo attempted to force himself sexually on another resident. The other was when one of his students was claiming to have received some kind of special doctrine from him that the student said he would reveal after Nishijima had passed away. In both cases he was angry for about 20 seconds and then got over it. I was very impressed by that ability.

kenzen said...

I am speechless! I cannot express how much I enjoyed those videos. You don't get that kind of ass-kicking these days. Now, it's all about fancy kung-fu, back then it was a straight kick and punch to the grill piece! And you gotta love the music in the background. "Alright chump, one time and one time only, Where's Art", "Art who?" POW! Straight to the point. Like zen in some ways!

Brad Warner said...

P.S. I just noticed that even the rewrite that I posted above is an early draft and not the final one. Sorry. It's a busy day & not enough time to proofread. Trust me, the version that comes out this Summer will be English and not "Engrish."

anon #108 said...

Hi Brad -

The quoted passage was posted by Gudo on his blog, Feb 7th this year. It's the 3rd verse of Chapter 27.

It's not the Engrish that's the problem, it's Gudo's misunderstanding of the Sanskrit, which is too often apparent regardless of his idiosyncratic English.

But we've been here before.
I hope your many conversations with Gudo have clarified all these confusions, ambiguities and mistakes. Although having no Sanskrit yourself...

Whatever. I look forward to the book.

Mr. Reee said...

[Future Sect, Past Sect, Secular Sect, and Reality Sect, are the doctrines.
Among them, the Future Sect believes in eternity (relying upon the god Vishnu,), the Past Sect believes in determinism (relying upon the god Shiva,) the Secular Sect affirms secular morals, but the Reality Sect relies upon reality itself. ]


This seems to dovetail nicely with the "Three Philosophies & One Reality" schema Gudo laid out in "Understanding the Shobogenzo"-- as in:

Future Sect -- Idealism
Past Sect -- Materialism
Secular Sect -- Pragmatism (?)
Reality Sect -- 'Action in the present moment' (?)

Is that by design or am I reading too much into it?

anon #108 said...

That's bound to be it, Mr Reee. Well spotted. Although I think you might have your Secular sect and your Reality sect mixed up. But it's easily done.

- trater.(I don't mean to be!)

Anonymous said...

I just finished reading Nishijima's latest blog entry (february 7). Wow. I wonder what Brad and or any of you would think about all this if you encountered such writing by some random guy on a blog. I've studied Buddhism most of my life and I can't make hide nor hair from the gobbledygook written there. Some of the defenders here remind me of christian apologists who read the contradictory muddle that is the bible and see the greatest book ever written. Sorry, he may be a nice old man, but this is pure crap. I don't even know Nishijima and I'm embarrassed for him.

Mr. Reee said...

"...Although I think you might have your Secular sect and your Reality sect mixed up. But it's easily done."

Yeah. I guess you could say I'm sect-ually mixed up on that one. :)

FWIW (to anyone), I found Gudo's "Understanding the Shobogenzo" exceptionally valuable after reading SDASU, etc. It put the 'zen framework' into a familiar western form that I found easy to grasp--especially the part about the primacy of practice itself.

Sometimes I think it would be helpful to simply do away with the word Zen™ and simply call it Action-In-The-Present-Moment. Can't get much clearer than that.

alan said...

Anon @ 11:32,

That is an interesting statement you make :

"I've studied Buddhism most of my life"

And calling out "gobbledygook", "contradictory muddle" and "pure crap" about the words of a Zen master and the Bible are the fruits of your study?

Anonymous said...

And calling out "gobbledygook", "contradictory muddle" and "pure crap" about the words of a Zen master and the Bible are the fruits of your study?

Yes alan, it is. Dogen, Hakuin and others have used harsh words to describe teachers with whom they disagree as well. Do you believe this reflects badly upon them? How about Brad's words:

I'll just repost this from Shonin's blog re Brad Warner:

"He criticises and freely insults students and teachers he doesn't like and he does it recklessly and without regard for their feelings. On his public blog, he referred to a student that left a sesshin early as an 'asswipe', referred to Genpo Roshi and Ken Wilber whose work he doesn't like as 'butt buddies' - a titles he has also used for people who have challenged his teaching style in the past. No doubt he'll call me something similar if he ever reads this. Buddha and Dogen must be proud.

The justification that he gives for acting like this is that this is how he really feels and that to act differently is 'phoney' and that anyone who does this is a hypocritical 'asshole'.


Are you applying this same standard to Brad's comments about others?

anon #108 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Anonymous said...

Rob
I agree with what you have said
I've been in conflict over my own
participation at Treeleaf forum: I enter into discussions there on occasion but I do not regard Jundo or Taigu
as 'my teachers'
they are other people's teachers and it is their 'zendo' and I am a guest when I visit there
I don't want to 'get into it' too much over at Treeleaf: don't see the point in doing so
I am not interested in stirring up emotions as much as I am interested in conveying what I might call 'the spark of dharma'
To try to put this stuff in words is another form of practice: zazen with your mouth flapping (or fingers typing as the case may be)

alan said...

Anon @ 11:32,

"Are you applying this same standard to Brad's comments about others?"

As a matter of fact at one point I remember comparing Brads behavior to Ann Coulter. In response to his asswipe comment.

Is that close enough to the same standard?

"Dogen, Hakuin and others have used harsh words to describe teachers with whom they disagree as well".

Fine company indeed. Not sure how you fit into that pantheon other than criticizing Brad.

Maybe it's time to shed the cloak of Anon and come out with some Zen teachings of your own? :=)

Cheers.

Anonymous said...

folks sure do love to come here and start up a good old fashioned saloon fight

sometimes this blog is impossible to describe

ficit said...

To be fair to Brad, he was a young man in his early forties when he went off on Mr. Wipe and the two Buddies. And if you haven't noticed, Brad has been quite gentlemanly this past year. He gave up philandering, cursing and smoking weed.

Brad Warner said...

Correction: I gave up smoking weed ages ago. The philandering and cursing will probably take longer.

alan said...

In the outside world, when some public official is accused of being insensitive to some group or another, the stock response is commonly some attempt to embrace said group.

The cliche being : "some of my best friends are members of such and such a group/race/religion".

In this blog, in response to accusations of Brad-o-philism, the hapless accuse sometimes searches for some way of proving that he/she thinks Brad has feet of clay, mouth of potty or in general suffers from a bad case of unZen-nes.

Having very recently watched myself do exactly this, I have to laugh.

Mysterion said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
anon #108 said...

"To stop the drip, turn cock to right."

It's not working, Mysti :(

Jinzang said...

The translation of the MMK on Gudo's blog is pretty poor, as has been noted by me and others (including anon 108) before. It seems that Brad will turn out something fairly coherent, though it looks more like a creative reinterpretation of the original than a faithful translation.

None of this is evidence that Gudo is senile or a poor Zen teacher, It's just that he doesn't know Sanskrit very well and he has ambitiously tried to translate a difficult text.

I don't know Jundo or Brad personally, so I'm in no position to say which of the two is more "enlightened." It's a silly point to argue in any case and in my opinion a waste of time.

jundo cohen said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
jundo cohen said...

Smoggyrob wrote,

"Nishijima Roshi has strongly and consistently disagreed with Jundo whenever he's said anything about Buddhism."

Hi Rob,

Just to set the historical record straight (for the sake of legend for hundreds of generations to come), Nishijima Roshi did not "ask me to leave" Dogen Sangha, and my eventual wish to depart because of some issues with the organization was the cause of some later tensions. Roshi eventually suggested, as his own idea, that Treeleaf could be its own branch Lineage, and that the change would have no effect on my relationship to him. I always felt that I was too honest with him about certain things which others would ignore. You can read Nishijima Roshi's and my statements on the leaving here, in the first two posts on Roshi's blog:

Treeleaf Departure

But, you know, being "in" or "out" does not truly matter, and is a state of mind as much as location ... not one, not two. :-)

Anyway, I do not want to drag up old stuff, but just set the record straight as it was under discussion here.

By the way, I just visited Roshi in his apartment on Tuesday, we had a good chat, he looked the same although walking a bit more slowly.

Gassho, Jundo

Anonymous said...

Jundo
coming here reminds me how I felt when assistant principal would walk into back of classroom
turn around, see him, guy in suit, creepy what doing in classroom?
go to own office and stay away from classrooms
you have your own office, go there
we know where to find you if we need you
right, you got it, in your own office

locki said...

anon @6.24pm -

I don't think we should be wanting to ban people from commenting here. That doesn't seem to be Brad's approach to this, his blog.

What are you afraid to hear?
Sad.

Steven said...

Just closed the cover on "Zen Wrapped in Karma Dipped in Chocolate"

I especially enjoyed the part on the thoughts that come up on how to escape a sesshin.

Anonymous said...

HIYA!!! I bet the real reason you went to Japan was to learn karate from a master in order to return to Akron and avenge your comrades death.

Unfortunately at the time you could not read Japanese and ended up at a Zen temple instead of a Karate dojo.

Mistakes happen!

HIYA!!!

Smoggyrob said...

Hi everyone:

I don't get off on trashing Jundo. I don't go to Treeleaf, I don't stalk him around the net. But when he comes here I feel it's important to point out that the only person who ever gave Jundo permission to teach consistently disagrees with him and asked him to leave DS.

Setting the record straight is one of the reasons I posted. Jundo just said, "Nishijima Roshi did not 'ask me to leave' Dogen Sangha..." The link he provided starts with, "At Nishijima Roshi’s suggestion...".

Here are some Nishijima quotes about Jundo:

"But in your [Jundo's] case you do not follow Master Dogen's teaching SHIKAN TAZA, or just to practice Zazen, at all, and so you do not agree with Master Dogen's important teachings at all. Of course you have your perfect freedom not to follow Master Dogen's teachings at all, because you are not a believer in Master Dogen's Buddhist theories at all. In such a situation it is very clear that your Buddhist thoughts are perfectly different from my Buddhist thoughts. But you have written already so many your Buddhist ideas, which are perfectly different from Master Dogen's thoughts..." -- N.

"Recently James Cohen and I have a talk about our Buddhist views, and unfortunately we have found rather big differences between our thoughts." -- N.

"Of course he is one of my Dharma Heir, and so even though he does not belong to both Dogen Sangha and Dogen Sangha International, our communication will continue as before." -- N.

"I have been rather surprised that you [Jundo] do not know that Buddhism recommends us not to have attachment so clearly." -- N.

"I am afraid that it is too difficult for him [Jundo] to understand our Buddhist discussions, and so he thinks that Gudo Nishijima does not know Buddhism at all." -- N.

"I am always teaching my only one Truth especially, and so if there is anyone, who can not understand my teaching, everyone can have perfect freedom to leave me." -- N.

"Frankly [speaking], I have clearly noticed that your [Jundo's] Buddhist thoughts are completely different from mine, and so I think that even though we have discussions on Buddhism, we can never arrive at the good conclusion at all. Therefore I want to stop our Buddhist discussions completely." -- N.

"Unfortunately I think that you
[Jundo] are a typical Sravaka, and so it is impossible for me to call you a Buddha. Therefore it is perfectly impossible for me to have a Buddhist talk together with you.
" -- N.

"But I do not agree with your [Jundo's] idea of mindfulness. It is clearly a mistake in selecting vocabulary. " -- N.

So, dear hundreds of generations to come, don't get it twisted -- Jundo's Buddhist thoughts were perfectly different from Nishijima's Buddhist thoughts.

Rob

jundo cohen said...
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jundo cohen said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
CynicalBoy said...

There are many words
To support a point of view
Trust your own judgement

jundo cohen said...

Hi Rob,

Your first quote and several of your other quotes from that same thread ...

"But in your [Jundo's] case you do not follow Master Dogen's teaching SHIKAN TAZA, or just to practice Zazen, at all

... were not about me, it was something Nishijima wrote about BRAD! (How ironic that you should mention those!). That is, as I am sure you well recall, when the subject came up of BRAD's famous, probably misunderstood, posting that Buddhism is not about "non-attachment" ...

http://suicidegirls.com/news/culture/23266/

Nishijima Roshi, as he often does in his old age, became confused and thought I had written that. I suppose you intentionally left that part out, but Nishijima's full comment begins ...

I have been rather surprised that you [Jundo] do not know that Buddhism recommends us not to have attachment so clearly. I think that it is very common rule in Buddhism not to have any attachment to anything. Therefore if you insist that Buddhism does not recommend us to leave attachment, the problem is related with a fundamental principle of Buddhism, and so I would like to ask you, please check
whether Buddhism does not recommend to leave attachment, or not.

I have been also very surprised that you do not believe in the principle that it is very important for Buddhists to keep the balance of the ANS at every moment.

But in your case you do not follow Master Dogen's teaching SHIKAN TAZA, or just to practice Zazen, at all, and so you do not agree with Master Dogen's important teachings at all.


He continued in that same posting with most of the other quotes you cite (as if not from the very same post for some reason.).

http://gudoblog-e.blogspot.com/2009/01/reality-materialism-and-autonomic.html#c7639404748496291016

I promptly wrote him back to say that he had confused me with Brad.

http://gudoblog-e.blogspot.com/2009/01/reality-materialism-and-autonomic.html#c7235296197268017959

Again, just to set the historical record straight for posterity. :-) If you are not more careful with handling quotes, Rob, people may begin to doubt you.

Gassho, Jundo

Ran K. said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Anonymous said...

Rob,

I remember reading these exchanges in Gudo's blog. I believe the conversation took place at a time when Jundo's disagreements with Brad were distressing Gudo - and it's clear where Gudo's loyalties lie. At the time those loyalties may have prejudiced Gudo's view.

In this case - as in quite a few other instances recently - it's VERY clear that Gudo badly misunderstood who'd said what. It's interesting that he failed to apologise for or modify his initial response to Jundo when the mistake was pointed out. To me it indicates he'd stopped listening...didn't care. His mind was made up. He appears to be the kinda guy who does proceed on the basis of a made-up mind - his simple, straight, stupid way. While that stubborn personality has led him to make some important contributions to Buddhism, it's also caused problems. Zen Masters are human. They come with personalities.

Of course, this isn't the first time Gudo has decided a previously revered student is not a Buddha, or completely misunderstands Buddhism and is teaching something else. It happened to Mike Cross and Mike Luetchford. Gudo, for all his original insight and great contribution, is a very stubborn, sometimes stupid man.

Rob, even if Jundo's Buddhist thoughts were perfectly different from Nishijima's Buddhist thoughts, would it matter? Why should it matter, and to whom? Should someone be denied a voice because his Buddhist thoughts might not agree with someone else's Buddhist thoughts?

Anyway...so much of this is speculation, in hindsight, about matters hardly any of us are involved in, and know even less about. (There are other things Jundo has done - rather than thought - which have soured relations between himself and Dogen Sangha. But they're none of our business). It's been, gone, and done. If you don't like Jundo, don't click on Treeleaf (but don't be surprised if he comes here when called out!).

cynical boy's short comment is worth repeating:

There are many words
To support a point of view
Trust your own judgement

Anon @ 5.19am said...

Rob wrote:

Setting the record straight is one of the reasons I posted. Jundo just said, "Nishijima Roshi did not 'ask me to leave' Dogen Sangha..." The link he provided starts with, "At Nishijima Roshi’s suggestion..."


Let me guess what might have happened. Brad is declared Leader of DSI. J has concerns about both Brad and DSI. J discusses these with G. It leads to disagreement. J thinks 'maybe I should go my own way'. G thinks 'maybe J should go his own way'. They meet and agree that J should go his own way.

Just a guess. Pure speculation. I could be very wrong. I wasn't there, so I'll never know.

CynicalDad said...

What was it that cynical boy said again?

CB #108 said...

Quit that dad.

anon @ 5.19am said...

Yes, but, dad... My own judgement. All in my own words - except for the quote from your son, the ingrate.

Mr. Reee said...

"Unfortunately I think that you
[Jundo] are a typical Sravaka, and so it is impossible for me to call you a Buddha. Therefore it is perfectly impossible for me to have a Buddhist talk together with you." -- N."


I didn't know what a Sravaka was, so I looked it up:

"Sravaka is a term for the disciples of Theravada or Hinayana Buddhism, who have grasped many essential doctrinal truths but have not yet attained the selflessness of the boddhisattva, the ideal Mahayana Buddhist figure who postpones his or her own entrance into nirvana until all sentient beings have been enlightened."



A disciple of Hinayana!

Dem's fightin' wurds thar! :D

CynicalDad said...

Poor boy can't even spell "judgment" properly.

CB 5.735 said...

Dad!!!

Now GTFOOH.

What do you know about Buddhism?


- Sorry guys. He's a Brit Hume kind of guy, - nothing I can do.

Anonymous said...

judgement or judgment?

...more americocentrism.

Dad said...

Read anon @ 5.19 am at 6:36 am: - he said it right: "ingrate".

Dad said...

Now that's not me saying, is it love?

Cynical Ran K. said...

What I’d say to CynicalBoy’s words is “Just let the eye of the plum blossom be clear”. It is one of my favorite quotes from Dogen. (Shobogenzo Baike) Until then sometimes you should trust your own judgment and sometimes you shouldn’t.

In our particular case here as for “net zen“” it would be quite difficult for someone who has not yet received the transmission to have a word. My attitude would be that a person who received Dharma transmission knows what he’s doing. May be Brad’s fault for not bringing that up. The discussion here may be quite fruitless. If your eye is clear to a certain degree you can at least see that.

I may agree to a lot of what 5.19 is saying but his words ““Zen Masters are human. They come with personalities“.” are about as wrong as can be.

I don’t imagine I can understand Gudo.

If anybody can think for half a moment that he actually believed a Dharma heir of his not to be a Buddha - the misunderstanding is so fundamental that this persons thoughts are not even as stable as a house built of a raft.

edit said...

a house built on a raft

All in the Family never said...

As I take it what Gudo is trying to say in the passage quoted (anon @ 9:56 am) is: Take those who have materialistic view, the idealistic view, and the realistic view which is not yet reality itself, - now view them each according to their own views. You will find you do not see them. [for the picture in your mind differs from their actual being] Now would they have been real - they should be seen right now. (i.e. - without delay, due to their being real right now, i.e. without delay) But then again, he points - this is not the situation. (The idea is that if something is different from something in however a small degree - it is not the same thing, and if it is not the same thing - it is completely not the same thing. Identity is not relative. It either exists in full or it doesn’t at all. So the three discussed do not appear at all in the manner brought up in the beginning.)


Note that unlike the two other translations brought - here the past existence is not denied in the case of seeing oneself, or whatever, as the reality itself which transcends, or includes, space and time. One may deny the existence of past, or perhaps any form of remoteness, in the case of choosing this view, so it is not affirmed either.


So far my view. (as for what either Nagarjuna or Gudo is trying to say in the quote)


In the choice of the words - past, future, and secular Nishijima Roshi might have been trying to point at the source of what brings up those views. (In our minds - that is.) “Secular” might imply existentialism or something of the sort to a certain degree.

His use of the term “Interpretive” translation could strongly imply the first that, but this is just a guess.


(- Else, - I got a postcard from WLO, but I'll tell you about that another time.)

Rich said...

Rob, you have very strong opinions about Jundo and Treeleaf. Why is that? since you already said 'You can't think or want your way out of this shit. ' I hope there appears a time when all your opinions disappear and you truly 'can't think or want your way out of this shit'

This whole idea of Brad's way is better than Jundo's, or Treeleaf is new agey lovy dovy or Gudo doesn't like Jundo is just silly and laughable. Right now there is someone learning from Brad, from Jundo, from Gudo - this is important to understand and appreciate. I participate at TreeLeaf, Hardcore Zen and Real People but my practice is one, not two or three! -)

Mysterion said...

hey...
Gudo is not something you need to fathom.

hey...
Brad is not something you need to fathom.

hey...
Your own mental processes ARE something you need to fathom - or work on a bit (e.g. while sitting).

Never be too concerned about that which is more than a meter away - even in jazz.

anon #108 said...

Ran K - Zen Masters aren't human? They don't come with personalities? Have you met one? Perhaps you think a personality is a bad thing?

The Transmission is a ceremony. That's all. As you've said, it confirms a fact: the fact that the teacher believes the student knows, does, and can teach Buddhism. Nothing magical or supernatural occurs. That's Gudo's Transmission. Nothing so very special.


This interpretive translation by Mike Luetchford of that verse from the MMK might help your understanding of Nagarjuna's meaning (Nagarjuna is questioning views of, and belief in, literal rebirth):

"To say that the same "I" that exists now existed in the past is difficult to accept.
For the person who existed previously cannot be the same as me now."



What Mike interprets as "...existed previously..." is his understanding of the sanskrit "janmasu purveshu", literally "in previous births".

Not so difficult.

anon #108 said...

PS Mike's book also includes a word-by-word literal translation. I've quoted from his verse-by-verse "interpretation".

anon #108 said...

PPS - I wrote: "Nagarjuna is questioning views of, and belief in, literal rebirth."

I should add that, at the same time, N is also questioning the concept of 'self'; of something that persists from moment to moment.

...Oh read it yourself!

Jinzang said...

To say that the same "I" that exists now existed in the past is difficult to accept. For the person who existed previously cannot be the same as me now."

Birth, School, Work, Death.

Mysterion said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Another Asswipe said...

Rob said

Treeleaf is a typical romantic, new-agey, lovey-dovey group glossing over and trying to repress the same greed, hatred, and delusion as everyone else. You can't think or want your way out of this shit.

It is pretty obvious that you don't know the man or read his shit, asswipe. It would do you some good.

Same for "Buddha's diarrhea", which I consider at least as worthy of honor as his "lion's torso", "antelope like calfs" "sheathed sexual organs"... or any of the other "32 Signs". I intentionally chose something ugly and unpleasant for the title of this thread ... then stuck "Hail" before it.

Folks are always running running running toward something ... non-stop enlightenment, Kensho, the Pure Land ... and do not clearly perceive what is here all along. They want a Buddha encrusted in gold and jewels, and cannot see a Buddha, just as Pure, encrusted in used heroin needles and gun powder and vomit sitting in the gutter.

Through this Practice, we can come to see through the ugliness, to a Beauty which gives flower to both rose pedals and weeds. It is simply not necessary, however, that we experience the weeds (the ugliness, the pain) as rose pedals 24/7. That is my principle point: It is simply not necessary that we attain the transcendent and timeless all (or even much) of the time ... still, it can be "enlightenment". Let the ugly, disgusting, heartbreaking just be ugly, disgusting, heartbreaking ... and get on with a Bodhisattva's work to clean up what we can (don't expect an experience in which the world, much or all of the time, is converted into cotton candy clouds and cherry soda seas. Do not expect the wars and child abuse cases to become somehow less ugly ... even though, in our practice, they somehow sometimes do just that).

The Enlightenment man knows, somehow, that the pain and vomit is Buddha ... as overwhelming and ugly as it is in a given situation. Sometimes, he will be able to see through it, sometimes he may be lost in it ... no matter. He knows (at least most of the time). Thus, he is enlightened even if all he can sometimes see and hear is the pain and ugliness, and not rainbows and celestial music much of the time.

The deluded man simply never knows anything but delusion, and thus is deluded.

Where did the idea come that, once someone "attains enlightenment", the gutter is permanently a Pure Land of Buddha Palaces?


http://www.zenforuminternational.org/viewtopic.php?p=53699#p53699

Anonymous said...

"Where did the idea come that, once someone "attains enlightenment", the gutter is permanently a Pure Land of Buddha Palaces?"

To actually answer Jundo's question, it came from master Linji (Rinzai) who said something like (paraphrasing from memory) To the enlightened man (this is complete enlightenment / anuttarasamyaksambodhi, not just kensho) being in hell is like walking through a beautiful park.

This concept is also present in Hakuin's zazen wassan; "This earth where we stand is the pure lotus land and this very body is the body of buddha."

Anonymous said...

Hakuin's own stormy life and manci-depressive personality both before and after his "Kensho" may prove the point.

Smoggyrob said...

Hi everyone:

To those of you who've responded to my comments with thoughtful comments of your own, thank you. To those that knee-jerked it -- Hi! To Jundo, please read the About Me section of my Blogger profile. I was listening to "Borderline" by Joni Mitchell tonight, and noticed the following lyrics:

"Every bristling shaft of pride / Church or nation / Team or tribe / Every notion we subscribe to / Is just a borderline / Good or bad, we think we know / As if thinking makes things so! / All convictions grow along a borderline.

You could say this points out something I should be more aware of, that I'm "picking and choosing", and in a sense you'd be right. You could also say that, rather than a prescription for an ill that needs to be fixed, that it's just a description of the way we are. I would put forward that it's our normal way to try to fix this, and we'll never succeed because the mind that's trying to fix it is itself the problem. As the teacher Emo said, "I used to think my brain was the most important organ in my body until I realized what was telling me this.". Noticing this can result in doing good and not doing bad, but not because you're trying to do good and trying not to do bad.

I believe that Jundo is a false teacher and twists and spins history like, well, a lawyer. And I think it's important for someone to say so whenever he "pops in here for a minute". Read his announcement. It's spun so hard it makes me dizzy. Read his idea about having a Head Helper run DSI instead of a President. It strikes me as pathetic -- if he can't run DSI, than no one can! Who do you think claimed to have "received a secret teaching" from Nishijima?

Perhaps someone thinking about listening to his BS might read this and look into it further. I came to my conclusion from reading Jundo's online writing on DSB and TL, from Nishijima's responses to him, and from stuff I've heard in private. The last is why I use quotes from Nishijima to demonstrate my points. I recommend anyone interested do a site-search on DSB for Jundo OR Cohen and look for Nishijima responding to him. Notice that every time Jundo says something about Buddhism Nishijima smacks him down. Is there one example of Nishijima praising his Buddhist understanding? There might be, but I haven't run across it. But read it yourself, in context, and make your own decision.

It seems obvious to me that Jundo's teacher thinks he's full of shit, and that he asked him to leave his sangha. If you still think listening to Jundo is a good idea, more power to you. And if you need a heart surgeon in Los Angeles, try mine. He doesn't know a heart from a pancreas; no hospital will have him and he works out of his van; he's killed most of his previous patients; and I think he got his degree online and off-shore -- but he does own his own scrubs and he looks like a surgeon.

Rob

jundo cohen said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
jundo cohen said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
jundo cohen said...

Who do you think claimed to have "received a secret teaching" from Nishijima?

This is a lie, Rob. Are you stooping to innuendo now? What's the "secret teaching"?

There's a Precept about telling untruths, my friend.

Gassho, Jundo

jundo cohen said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
jundo cohen said...

Speaking of Hakuin, he had a pretty good response in the face of someone's lying (from Zen Flesh, Zen Bones, Paul Reps) ...

Put up or shut up, my friend.


There was a monk named Hakuin who was well respected for his work among the people.

In the village, there lived a young woman, the daughter of the food sellers. The young woman became pregnant by her boy friend who worked nearby in the fish market. When the parents found out about this, they were very angry and pressured her to reveal the name of the father. She wanted to protect the young man and blurted out the name of Hakuin as the father.

After the baby was born, the parents took the baby to Hakuin. They told Hakuin that he was responsible for the baby and left the infant with him. He responded: “Is that so?” And he simply accepted the responsibility for the child without further reaction.

The monk had no experience with babies. But he began to care for its needs, finding food, clothing, and warm shelter. The other villagers became very angry with Hakuin for his offense and his reputation was trashed. These comments did not affect Hakuin, who continued to put his effort and attention into the care of the baby.

After several years, the young woman was filled with remorse. She confessed to her parents the name of the true father. They immediately went to see Hakuin, apologized, and took the baby back with them. Hakuin watched as they returned to there home with the child he had cared for since birth and replied “Is that so?”

mtto said...

A bear and a rabbit were taking a shit in the woods.

The bear asked the rabbit "does shit stick to your fur?"...

jundo cohen said...

What's the "secret teaching"?

Yeah, well, I was looking at this and thinking, "Well, Rob wouldn't know ... cause its a 'secret'!" :-)

But seriously, when do you claim this happened? You are referring to this thing that Brad mentioned yesterday?

Furthermore in over a decade of almost daily interactions with Nishijima Roshi I have only seen him become angry two times. Once was when a resident of his dojo attempted to force himself sexually on another resident. The other was when one of his students was claiming to have received some kind of special doctrine from him that the student said he would reveal after Nishijima had passed away. In both cases he was angry for about 20 seconds and then got over it. I was very impressed by that ability.

Come let Brad, who is an honorable fellow, come here and say he was referring to me.

Shame on you, Robert.

Gassho, Jundo

Anonymous said...

Oh shit! Rob pushed Jundo's button! He's going to fucking pop like the guy in the restaurant from The Meaning of Life!!!


TAKE COVER!!!

another anon said...

Yes, anonymous at 1.23 in the morning California time...I haven't got much to go on, but you strike me as just the kind of guy who would not respond if attacked. Er...not.

Anonymous said...

Hi Rob - This is your response on Gudo's blog to Jundo's "announcement" at the time. We all change our minds. Sometimes a lot. It seems to me that you changed yours because of what Nishijima and Brad have written and said, rather than what Jundo has written and said. Whatever, it's clear that right now you're very sincerely convinced of your opinion.

But opinions are provisional and shouldn't be held on to too tightly, we're sensibly advised. Makes sense to me.

SmoggyRob said...

Mr. Cohen:

I don't know if you intended your letter to be made public, but here we are. Please pardon my intrusion, but DSI is important to me and so I feel compelled. So you know, I'm one of Brad's students.

I don't know you, so to learn a little I checked out http://www.treeleaf.org/ Your website is beautiful, it's amazing! Your openness to people online is a great example. You've moved your practice online so seamlessly it seems effortless. I really love what you're doing with your group.

I find it difficult to imagine a future DSI without you. You bring a lot to the table. If all you did was to redo the DSI website to be like what you're doing with Treeleaf, that alone would be an immense contribution. I'd rather imagine a future where your ideas continue to make DSI better.

Despite your initial reaction, I think a conversation with Brad would set to rest most of your worries about him. Except the dignity of the Sangha part.


Peace,

Rob

P. S. to Warner Roshi: @#$% off, I'll write whatever I want to.

4:34 PM, July 12, 2007

Harry said...

People can only really get into the curious niches of their own dirty gutters... when they loudly and aggressively spew their 'gutter stuff' at others I'm inclined to conclude that there is much more good, honest cleaning to be done.

If people don't trust you it may be because you have proven yourself untrustworthy via your own, actual deeds (at least, that's the case with me and I think it's true).

Hakuin, in the rather simple story, was not at fault in this regards on the other hand.

Maybe he should have dumped the baby when it didn't suit his personal wants and needs, collected divisive sworn affidavits to make his case, and sued the parents?

Don't be fooled by any such enlightened idiot **one way or the other**: make your own honesty. That 'we can only fool ourselves' is possibly one of the greatest gifts that Zen Buddhism offers human kind.

Regards,

Harry.

Anonymous said...

Secret teaching.. Is that like the secret sauce at Bronco Burger.. Thousand Island dressing?

jundo cohen said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
jundo cohen said...

Maybe he should have dumped the baby when it didn't suit his personal wants and needs, collected divisive sworn affidavits to make his case, and sued the parents?

I think Hakuin chose not to sue or anything like that, because Buddhists should be forgiving, allowing things to pass like water under a bridge. I think Hakuin knew that people all make mistakes, fly off the handle and loose their tempers, even engaging in violence ... that is just human nature. It could happen to anybody, even a student or teacher of Zen. Despite being done harm, Hakuin did not even demand an apology from the person who did harm, although one should have been volunteered I suppose. In fact, I do not even see in the story that the people ever backed down from their lies. Still, Hakuin forgave and forgot ... and moved on.

I hope that Hakuin was able to eventually sit down for tea and a bit of Zazen with the young woman and her family. Water under the bridge.

Gassho, Jundo

gniz said...

Not to overly stir the pot, but I do have a question for Jundo. You made a point about not wanting DSI to have one "leader", stating that in this democratic day and age there should be "oversight."

To Quote you: "a de minimus degree of checks and balances, and input into decision making, is a fundamental necessity. The idea is now long vanished within almost all Sangha and Buddhist organizations in the West that no system of oversight is required."

What system of oversight is in place at Treeleaf Sangha, and are you the "leader" of that sangha? Are there 5 year terms and so forth so that new people can be elected to lead Treeleaf (as you suggested happen for DSI)?

Please answer when you get a chance, Jundo.

Thanks.

Smoggyrob said...

Hi everyone:

I don't know who Brad was referring to. I know who I think he was referring to.

I visited someone at Camarillo State Mental Hospital during the LA Olympics. There was a guy there running around in a circle claiming that he was an FBI agent, a CIA agent, an Olympic sprinter, and Jesus Christ. Jundo has referred to himself in the third person multiple times, and has compared himself to Gandhi and Hakuin. If I had to choose between them for a teacher I'd become a disciple of Agent Jesus. At least he knew he was in Camarillo.

Rob

clari said...

Only one or two people have direct knowledge or experience of what has occurred between Gudo, Jundo and any other parties. The rest of us are just indulging in speculation, based on gossip, rumour, innuendo and inference. Blog exchanges and emails can be read many ways.

Is it any of it helpful?

clari said...

I don't know who Brad was referring to. I know who I think he was referring to.

That's honest of you, Rob.
You make my point.

gniz said...

Hey Rob,

You make some good points about Jundo but saying that he was going to lie about a "secret teaching" is kind of heavy-duty and should be backed up with something a bit more factual than "that's who I THINK Brad was referring to when he made such and such statement."

I think sticking to the facts is more helpful. For instance, I posted above that there seems to be a clear disconnect between what Jundo advocated doing with DSI and what he ended up doing at Treeleaf Sangha.

As far as I can tell, Jundo is the head teacher and leader of Treeleaf. He has banned people and taken other actions unilaterally, without any kind of "oversight" or "checks and balances".

This isn't a problem in and of itself, but it points to a possible lack of truthfulness on Jundo's part. Why was he so insistent about DSI not having one leader, having a system of checks and balances, terms of office and elections?

Was it because Jundo was not named as the successor, so he tried to throw a wrench in the works?

Again, whether or not that is the case, at least there we have Jundo's own writings and his subsequent actions as head of Treeleaf with which to examine things more objectively.

I don't think we should smear him based on little more than sheer guesswork, no matter how tempting that may be.

van said...

Brad said: "The other was when one of his students was claiming to have received some kind of special doctrine from him that the student said he would reveal after Nishijima had passed away."

So Brad are you going to let Jundo off the hook? Like so many times in the past, you produce the knife, and then one of your boys pushes it in. Were you referring to Jundo or not? Maybe you can take a 'stab' at this question.

Anonymous said...

WTF? Gniz is the voice of reason and Rob is a loose cannon? Good Is Bad, Up Is Down, Black Is White, War Is Peace..

Harry said...

Hi Jundo,

I think the Hakuin story is a fairy tale when you adopt it like that. I think Buddhism is exactly about not falling for our very own, and/or other people's, fairy tales.

I'm sorry, but you've never fooled me, even when I wanted to be fooled.

To Everyone: I've seen Jundo in action directly (privvy to all the offensive, aggressive, self-obsessed, self-righteous emails, in one episode at least). I won't publish them because I'm afraid to do so. I'm afraid what that might result in. Jundo wants me to be afraid, he wants to control me in this way. He wants to control others in this way too.

Don't be fooled, folks.

I sort of like the guy, but he's a whack-job who isn't aware of the fact (he thinks his fairy tales are real and that he has some privaledged angle on 'the truth' and what's 'right' i.e. him).

See you in court, or wherever. I'm sure you'll get something more on me before too long.

Regards,

Harry.

gniz said...

"I won't publish them because I'm afraid to do so. I'm afraid what that might result in. Jundo wants me to be afraid, he wants to control me in this way. He wants to control others in this way too."

Harry you've got to be kidding me, right? Jundo is this wacko that you're literally afraid of, even though he lives in a completely different country from you??

I can't tell if any of this is a joke or sarcasm mixed with truth. Very strange.

Harry said...

Gniz,

It's legal stuff that involves other people besides me. A carefully constructed web of lies, gross self-deceit and legal threat. It's very clever actually, but completely malign. Besides the main players, I saw how it intimidated and negatively effected completely innocent people on the periphery.

I don't accept a moral lesson from the instigator of that.

Regards,

Harry.

Shonin said...

It's a shame that Shakyamuni Buddha stopped the wheel of birth and death. He'd sort this mess out. I think that was what the Vinaya was/is for.

Anonymous said...

Harry,
WTF, did he butt rape you or something? lol If he did something so bad then why are you worried about the consequences? If it was that bad then you should be able to back up your case and prove that he did something wrong. You live in f&*%ing Ireland and lives in Japan! Does anyone else see something wrong with this picture. I've heard of virtual bullying but c'mon. Don't talk trash if you're not going to provide the facts to back it up! At least Rob gives links to "back up" his argument.

Anonymous said...

Put her down and move on.

There. Mess sorted.

Harry said...

Hi Anon,

Hee hee, no, it didn't come to bum thumping.

I'm not making a 'case'. I certainly wouldn't take on Jundo-at-Law legally and 'factually', life's too short.

It's just my own opinion (this is just a blog, not a courtroom) based on my own experience... feel free to treat it just as some guy mouthing off on an internet blog!

The communications contained legal content concerning others that I will not be publishing because I'm afraid what doing it might bring on others (including Jundo, actually). I'm afraid of that, not Jundo. I'm not afraid of Jundo at all.

Regards,

H.

Anonymous said...

I believe Harry might be referring to emails circulated by Jundo to Gudo's dharma-heirs a few months ago. I'm assuming Harry saw and read them. These are also what Jundo refers to in his comment @ 5.39am. I've not seen them, but I understand from someone who has (yes, more gossip - but first-hand gossip) that they read like the rantings of a very angry and disturbed man - in a very aggressive, legally threatening, mood. Jundo says "It could happen to anybody" and it's "water under the bridge". Harry says "I don't accept a moral lesson from the instigator of that."

If I'm mistaken, Harry, knock once for 'no' and accept my apology.

108th nervous break-down said...

It's still not clear who is being less truthful here. Up until a few minutes ago it seemed that Rob was going overboard defaming Jundo over mere conjecture.

Then Harry says that Jundo is a whack-job, living in a fantasy world and is compiling a dossier on him and others and will see him in court?

Then he backs off by saying that providing any 'real' information on the matter might harm others along with Jundo.

This gets odder and odder..

Rich said...

Thanks guys, I haven't laughed this much in awhile. I was going to reveal my secret teaching but I don't want to upset Rob.

That Hakuin story is a good example of dharma nature being transmitted by the unemotional. It is also transmitted by rocks and trees so spend some time outdoors this weekend.

Anonymous said...

108th nervous, you've just been told what the 'whack job' legal stuff's about. If you're really interested, you can search the archives - it was mentioned here last year (Jundo alleges assault, threatens action...) Please keep up.

Harry said...

Yes, it is very, very odd.

Now, come have a cup of tea with me, Brother... or I'll see you in court!!!

Regards,

Harry.

Harry said...

108th Nervous Breakdown: "Then he backs off by saying that providing any 'real' information on the matter might harm others along with Jundo."

I'm not backing off at all.

1. I think Jundo's a nut-job (which, in itself, is not a neccesarily bad thing... but he doesn't seem to recognise the fact).

2. I don't trust him, and I have good reason for not trusting him, as do others.

3. ...And I think people should be very careful in their dealings with him and what they say about him.

... But, you know, nobody's perfect, and maybe he'll get over his 'Perfect Buddhist Lawer versus The Evil non-Jundo World' thing. At least I hope so.

Regards,

Harry.

108th nervous breakdown said...

So sorry #108.. Yes, yes, the alleged assault. I thought you folks were chatting about a special doctrine to be revealed after N's death. I must update my files on DSI.. Sorry again about not keeping up. Unfortunately gossip can only only a hobby for me.

Anonymous said...

Hey!

Perhaps James 'Jundo' Cohen is both a whack-job AND a good (for some) Buddhist teacher.

Is that possible?!

Harry said...

Yes. It clearly is.

Regards,

Harry.

Shonin said...

Are you alleging that the alleged assault was fabricated?

As for Jundo having a 'flawed character', I thought we were all cool with that over here in Brad's World.

jundo cohen said...

Hi,

Okay, one things at a time. First Gniz's question, and then Harry.

Gniz, it is very fair to ask this ... It might be more appropriate to move the conversation to Treeleaf, but you asked here so ..

To Quote you: "a de minimus degree of checks and balances, and input into decision making, is a fundamental necessity. The idea is now long vanished within almost all Sangha and Buddhist organizations in the West that no system of oversight is required."

What system of oversight is in place at Treeleaf Sangha, and are you the "leader" of that sangha? Are there 5 year terms and so forth so that new people can be elected to lead Treeleaf (as you suggested happen for DSI)?


I have written about this before, please feel free to disagree with my reasoning in any way.

The first thing I usually emphasize is that we do not accept any donations at Treeleaf, not a dime (although we do encourage the practice of Dana, we do so by encouraging donations to public charities of the donor's choosing, unrelated to Treeleaf, to feed the poor, cure a disease, etc). I fund Treeleaf out of my own income as a translator of Japanese. Certainly, if we had any money raising going on at all, we must comply with bookkeeping and accounting rules, put accounting fiduciaries in place for oversight, make public disclosures of how the money is spent. It would be absolutely necessary, and most Buddhist Sangha in the West that handle funds now do so. Any organization that collects funds should do so.

The second thing I say (only half in jest) is that the main "check" we have to avoid the sex scandals that have plagued so many communities is that (1) we are not a residential community, and students are located in far flung regions (2) my wife has black belts in both Karate and Ai-ki-do. She would kill me. And, of course, there are the Precepts.

Now, on the question of "democracy" and "checks and balances". It most certainly applies to our Sangha. Now, Treeleaf is a Sangha consisting of a group of members and two teachers, Taigu and me (who, by the way, have vowed to keep watch on each other and to "blow the whistle" on the other should there ever be abuse). However, the Sangha is really like a restaurant selling the "Dharma/meals" cooked by two particular chefs (me and Taigu). So, it is a bit different from the situation in Dogen Sangha, which is a body of inderpendent Sangha, each with its own teacher, attempting to work in concert. However, democracy applies very directly to us too:

People in a Sangha like ours vote with their feet. If they don't like the taste of our food, or the cleanliness of the kitchen, they should eat elsewhere, and publicize the health risks at our place.

If I or Taigu should ever act in a way that is abusive, for example, I have told our Treeleaf members to move the Sangha elsewhere, continue the sitting and discussion without either Taigu or me (assuming only one teacher is the problem) or both of us, and go public with their reasons (blast the alleged abuses all over the internet)! (In other words, they should go find other teacher(s) and leave us behind, and make public the reasons why. If they don't like Taigu and/or me, they should "unelect" us by finding other teachers and continuing Treeleaf/Zazen practice without us. It is my express wish they do so!

(to be continued)

jundo cohen said...

I am no longer in a position to comment on the structure of DSI. I honor Brad as its President. I wish him and the entire organization well. At the time I was a member, though, I did note that it is an umbrella organization of many many Sangha associated with Nishijima Sensei and felt that a committee of administrators (not me alone, but all the Sangha heads with 1 vote) would be more appropriate than the "president for life" structure that Nishijima created in a very Japanese way. My suggestion was not taken, fine with me.

I did then think that, after the countless cases of power, financial and other scandal within various Zen and other Buddhist Sangha around the world … a de minimus degree of checks and balances, and input into decision making, would be a fundamental necessity there. They do have some property assets there (mostly book copyrights), there could be questions of sexual relationships between member teachers and students ... we should be careful, I thought at the time. The SZBA and AZTA to which I belong had recommend certain rules and checking systems, I thought we should think about doing so.

But, as I said, I lost that battle.

Feel free to shoot holes in my logic.

I will be back in a minute with Harry's thing.

Gassho, Jundo

108th nervous breakdown said...

Harry: That's fine.. It's just that you came on so strong at first. I was convinced you were joking..

I can only hope that Jundo doesn't get anything more on you. It sounds disgusting..

um Regards,

NB

jundo cohen said...

As far as I can tell, Jundo is the head teacher and leader of Treeleaf. He has banned people and taken other actions unilaterally, without any kind of "oversight" or "checks and balances"

Oh, one more comment on this before moving on to Harry's thing.

We have only had to "ban" four people in the four years of daily practice and discussions at Treeleaf forum. One because of health concerns (I required a doctors note from someone), and three because they were fighting with other members, and we were receiving complaints from other members. After several friendly warnings, the problem persisted, especially when some folks seemed to like to participate and drink at the same time. Not a good combination. Nothing was hidden.

No comment on who those folks were! :-)

I think 4 cases in 4 years is a very good record, especially for internet forums.

Gassho, Jundo

Anonymous said...

AHA!

So, "108th nervous breakdown" is in fact "NB".

Hmm...let me revise my opinion.

Mr. Reee said...

"That Hakuin story is a good example of dharma nature being transmitted by the unemotional. It is also transmitted by rocks and trees so spend some time outdoors this weekend."

Excellent suggestion.

Let's go to the beach

gniz said...

Jundo,

Thanks for answering my question. I think you have some good and valid reasons for your setup.

I would note that you could still be more transparent and that the nature of Treeleaf could still change, and evolve and grow...in which case, I think it would be important for you to implement some legitimate checks and balances (not just "me and Taigu keep an eye on each other--that dog won;t hunt).

Again, thanks for the response.

108th nervous breakdown said...

"some folks seemed to like to participate and drink at the same time. Not a good combination. Nothing was hidden.
No comment on who those folks were! :-) "

Bushmills???

Harry said...

Yeah, I was kicked out of Treeleaf (with no process, without being informed, and without the right of appeal). That was fine. I was very edgy there (not all the time though). It was part of me finding my feet in Buddhist practice. I'm sorry if I offended anyone.

Interestingly, my departure was precipitated by my saying that what Jundo teaches is different from what Gudo teaches... if I needed to feel validated I'd be a happy bunny now.

If Jundo is implying in his insidious little spiteful lawer way that someone used to go to his 'place' drunk then I'd like to know how he comes to that conclusion? Did this person disclose this to Jundo? If someone in his Sangha has/had a drink problem then should he not be more careful with that information? Is he using it against them?

Is he talking about me? If he is, I can confidently tell you that I've been roaring drunk more times than Jundo has had hot dinners. I know all about it firsthand, and I don't drink so much any more due to the toll it takes. If Jundo wants to learn about this he just has to ask me. But he never asked me about it, and I never told him about it... so why, pray tell, would he bring it up now?

Regards,

Harry.

Anonymous said...

"Hakuin's own stormy life and manci-depressive personality both before and after his "Kensho" may prove the point."

Why the need to malign master Hakuin? Where do you get this information? Please post a link or quotation supporting your assertion that Hakuin was manic depressive and lead a stormy life.

Master Hakuin claimed to have dozens of kensho experiences. In rinzai zen these do not equate to perfect enlightenment.

I've seen the same sort of accusations leveled at master Dogen. Some authors have suggested he suffered from depression until he died. Like your own assumptions, there is no basis for this either. We have no way of determining if Brad or Jundo is depressive or neurotic, much less are we in a postion to pass judgement upon Dogen or Hakuin's mindstate.

Maybe it makes buddhists who have severe neurotic issues feel better if they can convince themselves that the old masters were not only human, but as deluded as they are. Or perhaps this was just a sectarian dig.

Anonymous said...

"I think 4 cases in 4 years is a very good record, especially for internet forums."

Jundo: 4 cases in 4 years is not that much. I know some people who can drink a case a month!

Anonymous said...

I don't know that Jundo is a 'false' teacher;

However, I have watched how various things at Treeleaf on the public forum have been addressed, (obviously I don't know about the private exchanges). I don't trust him based on what I have read in the forum there--perhaps I'd have a different take had I heard these exchanges in real life--so I give him benefit of the doubt and say "I don't know."

I don't watch the daily talks, there is only so much time in the day... However the fact that he has committed himself to 9 years being daily on line for zazen is something, it is quite a commitment, and it is true, the only way someone seeking to learn about zen buddhism or the practice of zazen is that someone else is practicing it and teaching how to do it.

That to me is the living germ of it. There is no 'more' than this, yet people throw in extras:
the daily talk, study groups, historical information, tips on sewing, book discussions, what is the purpose?
If left alone without the extras, zazen finds a way to be your life no matter what you are doing.

As time and my sitting have gone on I appreciate the doing of less and less
especially I am noticing the 'idea' of doing doing vs. just doing

Jundo puts a camera on himself to sit zazen
He encourages other students to put cameras on themselves to sit zazen
I don't know what this is.

With a camera on you when doing zazen, you are no longer doing zazen
you are doing zazen on camera

it may make sense to others, but to me there is being in an intimate relationship with someone, having sex with them, as very different from such taking place on camera.
sex with someone is one thing, sex with someone with video camera going is something else.
zazen is intimate behavior

I have no idea what it is, this being on camera stuff at treeleaf. It hits me in an odd place.
and it's oddness is something I haven't come to the bottom of.

It is hard to get a daily practice going and hard to keep it going, I wonder about the function of camera in daily practice, sort of a self imposed zazen warden or overlord.
This to me is contrary to the essence of zazen.

I understand if someone has never seen someone 'sit' and they are curious 'what is that all about, how is it done? etc' that instruction and brief demonstration are helpful

I understand 'scientific research' and wiring up the brain to study what happens during sitting that is different if you will

but the daily use of camera to film the entirety of zazen...I don't know quite what to make of it...something isn't right about it for me, it's a kind of zenporn or something, others seem to find it helpful...and I am free to not participate in this practice of zazen on camera

jundo cohen said...

Hi Harry,

To Everyone: I've seen Jundo in action directly (privvy to all the offensive, aggressive, self-obsessed, self-righteous emails, in one episode at least)

Well, I certainly give you my permission to make public all the e-mails. I have nothing to hide. The privacy concerns regarding the other people involved should be easily overcome just by removing their names and the few comments that would indicate who.

I believe this has to do with my famous call last year for all of Nishijima Roshi's "Dharma Heirs" who are residing in or visiting Japan to commit to sit Zazen once a year together and share a meal. As anyone who has followed the DS Saga over the years knows, there has been serious factionalism and frictions, and downright feuds, over a number of issues. People, sometimes living in the same city, were not speaking to each other, it is a silly way for a bunch of purported "Buddhist teachers" to act.

Anyway, my mistake is that I thought I would take the opportunity of Brad's coming to Japan to lead the Tokei-in retreat (Tokei-in is the root temple of our lineage) to press the issue. I invited all the people in Japan to have tea and sit Zazen together, and nobody accepted. So, I said that I would sit peacefully Zazen outside the Tokei-in, a "Zazen in", until folks came out and sat a little Zazen and shared a cup of tea. I said I would keep my distance from the retreat, not interfere, although I would have to let the Abbot of Tokei-in know why the hell this guy was going to be sitting Zazen on a corner of their property.

I wrote emails which said, and truly believe that, "Buddhist brothers, sharing the same teacher, should sit Zazen together once in a long while, especially if there have been problems between them" and "Buddhists should not be heart hearted, and should let all hard feelings float away, like water under a bridge. Whatever people feel, it is just a viewpoint. It is all thoughts, and passed time." That kind of thing.

Anyway, I may have pressed the issue to hard. To cut to the chase, one fellow with a martial arts background threatened to practice his skills on my, and then someone else (not Brad!!) actually did get a little hot under the collar and took some punches at me when I went to talk with him about all this.

Now, the person then started a "Jundo punched me, I am the victim" story, so I did the logical things. I took photographs of the bruises on my body from my injuries, I went to a medical doctor and had him examine the bruises and confirm that they were from punches (you could see the finger marks), I identified the several witnesses who were there (the person who assaulted me actually did so in a room with about a dozen witnesses), and I wrote it up in detail in an affidavit under oath, which I swore too at the embassy here.

I then wrote the person saying that, look, let's drop the whole thing. It happens, anyone can lose it, I have no hard feelings. All I want is for him to admit that I never raised a hand to him, even in defense when he slugged me. (It was not in the face, he just hit me in the chest a few times). The person has yet to respond. I did threaten court action to get the person to own up ... but truly, in my heart, I believe that resort to the law and courts should be avoided except in extreme circumstances, and especially among fellow Buddhists. I believe we have to forgive.

Anyway, I kept on with the "tea and Zazen thing", I still think it is the right thing for so-called Dharma Heirs of a teacher to do. I am thinking about whether I will revive the call to do so this year too.

I can understand how some people can get upset sometimes, even "Buddhists".

Gassho, Jundo

Anonymous said...

Buddhists should be forgiving...


People should be forgiving. Why? Because it leads to less suffering for themselves. Forgiveness actually refers to a private, subjective experience. It begins with an attitude towards one's own misdeeds. It extends towards others only when one has accepted one's own tendency to fuck up, again and again, despite one's own ideals for personal behavior. Forgiveness is a "self" experience much more than an "other" one. Same goes for non-harming.

There is a bunch of writing that talks about this. Much of it is by a collection of people who are referred to as "Buddhists". The concept is not unique to them. It's a human description. The writing describes ideals, things for each person to contemplate in private and discover how to apply to one's self in private. Forgiveness towards others follows this discovery.

Forgiveness can't be labelled as an 'attribute" that is prove-able, as in:

Buddhists value forgiveness
If Person X does not forgive another
Person X is not Buddhist

Can someone continue to riff on this one? Sharpen it up?

jundo cohen said...

Gniz wrote:

I would note that you could still be more transparent and that the nature of Treeleaf could still change, and evolve and grow...in which case, I think it would be important for you to implement some legitimate checks and balances (not just "me and Taigu keep an eye on each other--that dog won;t hunt).

No, I fully agree. If we get even a little more than me with a Zendo in the barn on our farm, and what we are now, the first thing I will do is establish a committee of members, elected by other members, who will have full oversight of finances. I would also establish ethics guidelines, and give the committee power to enforce them (much like San Francisco Zen Center has after the Baker Roshi scandals). Absolutely.

Gassho, J

Anonymous said...

as far as Jundo's vow to sit on line on camera for 9 years goes

there isn't a zen teacher who doesn't sit everyday for the rest of their life it isn't a public vow it's just the way it is

Harry said...

Hi, Jundo.

Can we see the independant witness statements please? (i.e. from the other people who were there on the day and who saw the alleged 'attack')

You can omit all names, of course.

I'm sure those people were happy to jot down an account of the event for you seeing as you were so wronged and victimised and all.

I don't accept your affidavit as an accurate account and so require third party verification.

I do know that there are statements from third party witnesses elsewhere. Do you have any to back up what you're saying?

Regards,

Harry.

Anonymous said...

One thing I've noticed is that when I accuse another of not being forgiving, I'm actually feeling an old wrong. I'm angry that someone hurt me long ago and never apologized for it. I'm hurt and angry and humiliated. I need the other person to apologize so I can forgive them. I can't forgive them until they apologize.

hmmm...

I can't forgive them because I can't forgive myself. Forgive myself for what? Perhaps long ago I was made to feel that I had done something wrong, something wrong and unforgiveable. Perhaps deep down I can't let myself off the hook for some forgotten misdeed, that actually wasn't even my fault, but because no one explained why it happened, I figured it was because of me. If it happened long ago, it may have happened before my understanding of the world, especially the adult world, was complete. In my childhood logic I learned to identify the feeling of wrongness with myself. So deep down. How can I forgive myself when it is so deep?

Mr. Reee said...

"Can someone continue to riff on this one? Sharpen it up? "

I'll try. How about:

1. There are no buddhists in the first place. Only actions.

2. Forgiveness could be an action. But not an identity.

Anonymous said...

dang that's sharp :)

nice.

jundo cohen said...

Hi, Jundo.

Can we see the independant witness statements please? (i.e. from the other people who were there on the day and who saw the alleged 'attack')


Yes. I hereby authorize to contact Mr. Harumi Saito, one of Nishijima Roshi's oldest and closest students for maybe 30 years, and ask him what he saw. I authorize you to repeat here whatever he tells you. I know you have his e-mail, because you are both cc'd on various Dogen Sangha mails. That man wouldn't tell a lie if his life depended on it.

Harry, would you like to press this any more, because I think you are starting to play "chicken" with me on what can be disclosed without revealing who these people were who were involved. Don't play games.

Gassho, Jundo

jundo cohen said...

Sorry, off to bed folks.

Sorry for the commotion.

Gassho, Jundo

alan said...

Jundo,

Sorry for the commotion?

Really?

mountaintop oyster said...

Bazzillions of comments
Conflict
Sharp criticism
Jundo Cohen

Must be about time for Brad to close the comments again.

Everyone get your clothes and personal items together.

Looks like we might be moving back in with gniz again.

Leave the light on for us gniz.

gniz said...

Guys,

I think it's a mistake to handle this stuff on a public forum. I admit to being curious about these things and I'm sure I added to the pot stirring with my comments as well. As usual, I need to offer an apology for getting involved when i could have easily kept my mouth shut.

But I think if Jundo had already let the matter slide for the most part and Harry didn't feel comfortable bringing up names, then let's leave it at that.

Everyone now knows enough to stifle their curiosity and nothing will ever truly be proven.

Let's let it drop...or as some would say "let's just sit with this, shall we?" ;)

Jundo's opinions won't ever be shared by most of the folks on Brad's blog and vice versa. But whether or not we want to hang out with him and have dinner, Jundo's a human being who's obviously been impacted by all this hubbub. Let's not completely character assassinate the guy.

I just say we drop this now and move on to talking about something more productive. Like whether or not Brad has ever watched fetish porn.

Over and out.

gniz said...

Mountaintop Oyster,

that was funny.

let's just say, mi casa es su casa.

Harry said...

Me playing games, Jundo?

Who started this particular 'game'?

I have no doubt that it's just a game to a seasoned legal beagle like you but, unfortunately, other people find it very upsetting. Me included. I did not ask you to include me in this 'game', if anything I asked you, twice, to stop sending me private emails as I found them aggressive and intimidating.

All this is the reason why I don't trust you as far as I could throw you... in case you haven't noticed by now.

I didn't ask to you to include me on your email list about this. That was your choice and, as I am not a Dharma Heir or even a long-time Dogen Sangha person, I think it is clear to see that your inclusion of me on the delivery list of all those twisted emails was designed to inflict damage on who it is you are trying to damage, and to settle an old score with me.

You are the one accusing people of doing outrageous, serious things, so it is up to you to back up what you are saying by providing back-up info. I'm not going to write to some person on the other side of the world who I've never met to bother them with your nonsense.

Besides, I am not cc'd on various Dogen Sangha emails, I don't have the man's email address, and I am not privy to communications between Dogen Sangha teachers.

I hope we don't get into a real game of chicken for your sake, because you clearly have so much to lose on this one, Jundo Cohen, Buddhist teacher.

Regards,

Harry.

Anonymous said...

gniz

Not to overly stir the pot, but I do have a question for Jundo.

later...

I'm sure I added to the pot stirring with my comments as well.

ha, yes, you announced it as such :)

I just say we drop this now

you're a funny guy. you like to stir things up, then you want things to be different. what up with yo? can't find the knob that controls this thing?

gniz said...

"you're a funny guy. you like to stir things up, then you want things to be different."

True. Sometimes I feel bored and I get excited by some new developments in what I like to think of as the DSI soap opera.

It can feel like a TV show sometimes. But then I remind myself that these are real people like me whose days (and maybe more) are being impacted or ruined because of the crap that gets written on here.

I don't want to add to that. It doesn't seem right, even though it's tempting to get caught up in the drama of it all.

Isn't that why Brad's blog hits have probably tripled today? People love a good car wreck...

Anonymous said...

yeah, thats why im here too. a soft form of addiction, craving, we hungry ghosts...

have a good one.

mountaintop oyster said...

It can't compete with the wreck here I guess, but there's actually a good discussion over at gniz's place about the nature of ego in Buddhism. More like something you might expect to find on a zen teacher's blog.

Ran K. said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
anon #108 said...

Hi Ran K -

You raise many interesting points, and have clarified things you wrote earlier which I may have misunderstood. Thanks.

If you follow his line of thought – it would follow that the person who ended Nagarjuna’s sentence (or verse) is not the one who began it.

That's right! And, I think it is relevant to the question of re-incarnation, for - as Gotama B queried: just what is it that might be re-incarnated/re-embodied? A person? A personality? A soul? An essence? Atman? 5 skandhas? What is the connection between one moment and the next? Between one life and 'the next life'?

BTW, for about 10 years I did work in criminal defence law - mainly representing suspects under arrest at police stations - but I gave it up at the end of 1999 to return to my previous career as an unemployed musician. I worked in the law. I am not 'a lawyer' ;-)

Ran K. said...

By the way -

About what Master Dogen say in “Tsuki” - that the moon at a point A in time and the moon at a point B in time are not the same thing – it occurred to me that we can not say that the moon at a point A in time does not relate to the moon at a point B in time in a different way than the moon at a point A in time relates to, say Venus – at a point B in time. So there is the question of what is a “same” thing and what is a “different” thing. It seems to be a matter of choice of the way we choose to use the words. Only after that we might examine the matter which Dogen or Nagarjuna are examining.

anon #108 said...

So there is the question of what is a “same” thing and what is a “different” thing.

Yes. It's just this, and other fundamental questions of language, meaning and philosophy that Nagarjuna examines. I'm afraid Gudo's translation, in it's current state, won't help you to grasp what Nagarjuna is saying. Maybe Brad's editing will reveal its secrets.

Ran K. said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Ran K. said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Anonymous said...

Did someone say fetish porn?

Ran K. said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Anonymous said...

Not really, why?

Anonymous said...

the comments appear to be mimicking the car chase/foot chase scenes

life imitates film

Anonymous said...

true, this comment section receives everyone

a zen teacher does not get into another zen teacher's space
yeah, sometimes by appointment there are such events

I mean, can you imagine a minister from one church going to another minister's church and pontificating during the coffee

it makes no sense
it makes nonsense
thus: what it is making here

for Buddha's sake, Jundo: just because Brad does not lock the door here, doesn't mean you should enter

You've explained and explained so carefully several different times about all the 'stuff'
What is this need to constantly be clarifying?

Have some self respect, man
go 'splain away on your own space.

Let Brad's blog be Brad's blog

jundo cohen said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
jundo cohen said...

for Buddha's sake, Jundo: just because Brad does not lock the door here, doesn't mean you should enter

I basically agree. If you check my posts, you will see that I am basically responding here to squelch rumors and fibs started from some obviously rather upset and irate people, and to address some ill informed comments specifically about our online Sangha. Other times in the past, I have appeared here because some situation needed to be spoken out about on the blog of the head of the Sangha. I am sorry that these people are so upset, but "angry Buddhist" should really be just a blog name and not a goal of practice. I still do not understand being a mean and angry Buddhist as a good thing to be encouraged, although we are all guilty of that too often as human beings.

If anyone has any questions on any matter, please feel free to write me privately at any time.

I am also going to revive my call for all Dharma Heirs of Nishijima Roshi to share an hour of Zazen and a cup of tea once a year, apologize mutually to each other for all evil Karma done by all in the past, ready to move on ... talk a little about our mutual teacher's situation and events before returning to our own lives. I advise folks not to participate in any Buddhist organization where the Buddhist teachers are so up their own selves that they cannot even sit Zazen together and share a cup of tea.

This should be aired in public, nothing should be kept hidden about something like this. It is when situations in Buddhist groups are hidden that the true danger begins. I will continue to respond in public, and in the open, if things are said that need responding to, or speaking out about. No secrets.

Gassho, Jundo

Rich said...

Anon @4:20
"a zen teacher does not get into another zen teacher's space
yeah, sometimes by appointment there are such events

I mean, can you imagine a minister from one church going to another minister's church and pontificating during the coffee

it makes no sense
it makes nonsense
thus: what it is making here"

This ain't no church, it's a virtual space and we play different roles form time to time like teacher, student, asshole or whatever.

There is no security. Accept it.

Anonymous said...

Been humiliated & seeking to humiliate. Angry for not being acknowledged so long ago when someone in power treated you badly, told you there was something wrong with you by not saying what was right with you, left you ashamed, unforgiveable and angry. Humiliated. Trying to right the wrong, again and again, all these years later.

Anonymous said...

this isn't about security
and unlike Treeleaf no registration is required to participate here

this is about Jundo's 'need' to come here

Harry said...

Hey, Jundo,

'Angry Buddhist', sure, whatever you say, Serenity Boy. Don't you remember the last time you had to make a public apology to me on my blog? (which you clearly went back on in sending me more of your trash)...

Jundo wrote in March 2009:
Jordan is right that I have been too aggressive in this discussion, I have been aggitated and it has been bothering me more than I knew, and I was taking it out on you without realizing it. The fact is that Brad's book, Nishijima Roshi's behavior (including racial and strange comments directed at me that I know he does not intend in his old age and which are not him really), and several years of other DS issues which you are too familiar with ... well, all came to a head. I did not realize that it would knock me sideways so much.

Anyway, I should not be using such a harsh, aggressive and "grumpy old man" tone with people. I am very sorry if I did that. I would hope that we can could the discussion sometime in a more mature way, although I understand that you no longer wish to receive any mails from me. I think that I have only sent a couple, but I will send no more.


I could almost like this Jundo (above).

Now, I'm going to ask you again, in front of these people (this is the third or fourth time):

Please don't send me ANY MORE private email correspondance. It has only been the source of trouble and grief in my life thus far. You are trouble, Jundo, my man.

Now, that's a simple (if loaded!... hee hee) request. I don't even want to know why you saw fit to involve me in your last whacky episode... Just no more email from you... That's it.

Regards,

Angry Demon.

Anonymous said...

Harry, doesn't your email have a 'block sender' function? Why not simply block all email from jundo?
Some of us appreciate Jundo's participation here. Brad has emphasized that this is not a zendo or teaching space so it is not the same as one zen teacher going uninvited to another's center....which zen masters of old actually did anyway.

jundo cohen said...

Been humiliated & seeking to humiliate. Angry for not being acknowledged so long ago when someone in power treated you badly, told you there was something wrong with you by not saying what was right with you, left you ashamed, unforgiveable and angry. Humiliated. Trying to right the wrong, again and again, all these years later.

You are really not listening, are you?

Some folks will attempt to redirect and misdirect attention away from any expression of criticism and dissent by saying "the fellow just is angry he did not get the bowling trophy ten years ago". Not only to I have enough trophies on the shelf, thank you, but it simply distracts from our ability to engage in calm, reasoned discussion of these serious issues (reminds me quite a bit of the current health care debate in America, and Fox News' attempts to distract from the issues by talking about Obama's birth certificate).

I am going to continue to speak out in public about a Lineage and a bunch of "Buddhist teachers" who hate each other so much that half are not even talking to the other half. I will continue to do so in a reasoned and civil way, and I will continue to engage in peaceful protest of that state of affairs in situations where called for and appropriate. I will speak out even though it would cost me much less personally to stay quiet (it does not help my personal reputation to be associated with the band of screaming mad banchees). I will do some of that speaking out, quite rightly I believe, on a public forum sponsored by the head of that very Lineage (here). I will raise my dissent and objections infrequently, but I will do so when I believe it is appropriate. I will let my softly spoken words and moderate actions speak for themselves, and let others act like hot heads.

In a protest of anger, minor violence and racism in a Buddhist Sangha ... it is quite demonstrative that some respond with anger, a little violence and racism sometimes (although the latter, not so much recently since it became public).

I will say it again: Any "Buddhist organization" in which the purported "Buddhist teachers" cannot drop grudges long enough, and engage in mutual foregiveness and repentance for past harmful Karma ... well, something is wrong there, off balance. The supposed "Buddhist teachings" that the organization presents lack some degree of Compassion. I am, fortunately or unfortunately (my Karma I suppose) tied to that Lineage for life.

Gassho, Jundo

Smoggyrob said...

Hi everyone:

People will dispute it, but I'm not angry. I'm determined and foul-mouthed, there's a difference. Some have questioned whether I think it's useful to continue my recent behavior, or whether I think it's helpful. I think it's absolutely necessary. Ever since Nishijima Roshi asked Jundo to leave Dogen Sangha, J's been on damage control... because he's damaged. He has tried his utmost to stay as close to N and DS as he can: "By the way, I just visited Roshi in his apartment on Tuesday...". That's because N thinking that Jundo doesn't know his Buddhist ass from a Buddhist hole in the ground directly threatens his self-image, and the image he presents to us. And that's what I'm attempting to counter.

If the HZB comment section was like your typical Buddhist forum, [start Droopy Dog voice] no one would say anything mean to anyone [end Droopy Dog voice] and Jundo would be free to spin away. It would be easy for people to assume that he was telling the truth, that the matter between him and N and DS was a minor kerfuffle and that he taught basically the same thing as taught in DS. There's a fundamental difference between the two, which is why N said, "Unfortunately I think that you are a typical Sravaka, and so it is impossible for me to call you a Buddha". The difference is that N and Brad (and DS in general) teach from the direct experience of reality and Jundo doesn't.

Jundo flat-out lied earlier in these comments. He said, " Nishijima Roshi did not 'ask me to leave' Dogen Sangha, and my eventual wish to depart because of some issues with the organization was the cause of some later tensions.". His link after that started with, "At Nishijima Roshi’s suggestion...". It starts that way because Jundo had just lied, and N did ask him to leave. I knew before that post that Nishijima was going to ask him to leave. And "eventual" from what? "Later" from what? From when N didn't ask him to leave? He wrote that sentence that way because he was lying. Jundo expends great effort at maintaining a carefully-crafted image, but he's not very good at pulling it off. In my opinion he lies a lot -- he is, in fact, a back-stabbing, two-faced piece of shit. Remember some of his comments about Nishijima Roshi.

Jundo's reply to Gniz' question was complete and utter bullshit. DSI doesn't accept money from anyone either. So, with three or more teachers democracy is required, but two or less makes democracy unnecessary? Bullshit. Jundo was hurt because he wasn't named President and he was throwing a tantrum. His explanation is pathetic.

So, that's it for now. I'm sorry if this wearies some of you. But I swear by the Avīci Naraka I'll continue to post my opinions about him whenever he comes to HZB. Or even if his supporters or anonymi with Jundo's writing style spout off too much. Remember, the take-away is that Jundo, "does not belong to both Dogen Sangha and Dogen Sangha International".

Rob

Anonymous said...

"even if his supporters or anonymi with Jundo's writing style spout off too much."

Rob, Don't imagine too much. Jundo will dig his own grave without your help.

163 said...

163

Mr. Reee said...

So much for Zen, eh?

Long diatribes about who did what to who, and who didn't do what to someone else, and how lame so-and-so is, and how dishonest this other jerk-off is...

You guys know anything about Zen? Here-and-now? Reality? Do the right thing, don't do the wrong thing? No escape?

Good God. My cat knows more about Zen than all the Buddhist masters put together.

But it sure as hell is entertaining. To death.

Mr. Reee said...

And in case someone misses the point of the last post--there is no "I" in reality. None. No such thing.

So how can there be another, who can offend "I"?

Go ahead. Ask my cat. She'll tell you.

jundo cohen said...

Good God. My cat knows more about Zen than all the Buddhist masters put together.

Mine too.

Gassho, Jundo

Anonymous said...

Hey, this is Jundo posing as an Anonymous

Jundo flat-out lied earlier in these comments. He said, " Nishijima Roshi did not 'ask me to leave' Dogen Sangha, and my eventual wish to depart because of some issues with the organization was the cause of some later tensions.". His link after that started with, "At Nishijima Roshi’s suggestion...". It starts that way because Jundo had just lied, and N did ask him to leave.

Rob, why are you digging that up again when your twisting quotes was exposed about 100 posts up? You think that if you repeat it enough times it becomes suddenly true? Anyone who wants to can read the thing for themselves.

Anonymous said...

Jundo wrote: I am going to continue to speak out in public about a Lineage and a bunch of "Buddhist teachers" who hate each other so much that half are not even talking to the other half."

That's telling. You believe the many dharma-heirs of Nishijima (Dogen Sangha), all over the world, some of whom have never met each other, "hate each other so much". I don't think that can be true. You can't hate someone you don't know. I guess you see yourself as the man with a mission to end this hatred, to bring them all together with a cup of tea and a chat.

Much of what you've written sounds very reasonable, Jundo. But that does seem a little delusional.

Have the teachers in Dogen Sangha asked for your diplomatic skills to help them end this hatred? I gather they've told you to go away. Perhaps you should listen, leave them alone, and carry on with your own group. By all means defend yoursef if you're attacked, but please DON'T continue to speak out in public about a lineage that doesn't want you to...in fact, who doesn't want to have anything more to do woth you. You may act with what you believe are good intentions, but your efforts don't seem to be helping.

Anonymous said...

...to say "I'm doing it for THEIR benefit, they need me is lying to yourself. You are doing this for your benefit. It's a very different thing from defending your own reputation, which you are entitled to do. They don't all hate each other and they don't need you. Sorry.

jundo cohen said...

That's telling. You believe the many dharma-heirs of Nishijima (Dogen Sangha), all over the world, some of whom have never met each other, "hate each other so much". I don't think that can be true. You can't hate someone you don't know. I guess you see yourself as the man with a mission to end this hatred, to bring them all together with a cup of tea and a chat.

You make a very good point, and I will take it seriously. Most of the teachers ignore each other, and even ignore Nishijima Sensei, and just do their own thing in various corners of the globe. They just keep away from the feuding and fighting and small jealousies and such.

But what of the hate, feuding, tensions, petty violence and racism that I have personally encountered? Should I remain silent about it (the safer course ... I have my own gig at Treeleaf and Shambhala Sun, and I could just ignore it all instead of speaking out and getting tangled with the crazies who grab the pitchforks to protect the cultish beliefs they cherish and wish to have unchallenged), or should I speak out at risk to myself?

Every once in a long while, I speak out.

Gassho, Jundo

Anonymous said...

As I said, Jundo, my own opinion, FWIW is -

"By all means defend yoursef if you're attacked...It [trying to help/influence Dogen Sangha] is a very different thing from defending your own reputation, which you are entitled to do."

Unfortunately, even that may not have the desired effect. But I know I couldn't ignore such personal criticism.

Harry said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Harry said...

Hi Jundo,

Do you agree, here on this public forum and in front of people, not to send me any more unsolicited email (as you promised to before), and not to try to involve me in any more of your DSI 'correction efforts'? (I don't even know if I'm a memeber of DSI for Christ's sake, or if I want to be!)

Regards,

Harry

Harry said...

p.s.

If you don't agree to this, and follow through in your actions (and/or inactions)I will be contacting the American Zen Teachers Association to complain as, well, frankly I feel a bit exposed.

Regards,

Harry.

Anonymous said...

Harry said...

frankly I feel a bit exposed.

Dude, you're exposing yourself here.

Smoggyrob,
Have you taken your precepts yet? Just curious.

Smoggyrob said...

Hi everyone:

Rob, why are you digging that up again when your twisting quotes was exposed about 100 posts up?

Bull. Jundo said they were about Brad -- they're not. I could go into a blow-by-blow of each one, but you can read the ones he contests yourself here. Nishijima replied to the attachment thing (I didn't quote that), then went on to lay into Jundo (which is where I quoted from). Nishijima knew in each quote that he was talking to Jundo. He knew what he thought about Jundo. And he said what he said, about Jundo. For anyone who doubts this, go read them in context. The quotes stand.

Was anyone able to find one example of Nishijima praising what Jundo calls Buddhism? No? I'm pretty sure some Anonymi would have posted the example by now. Nishijima doesn't find Jundo's take on Buddhism worthy of praise, he finds it worthy of censure.

In other news, today is Brad's last sit with DSLA, and the climax of his four-part lecture series on "Sex & Buddhism". Even though it's raining and you're sure to get wet, come on down and join us.

And by the way, Wikipedia's Featured Article today is on Huntington's disease.

Rob

Anonymous said...

leave nothing behind

this must be why the behinds are so hefty around here

I like mine slim and trim, but alas my indulgences such as opening my mouth result in addition rather to subtraction

not everything gets resolved the way one has imagined
what needs to happen so that moving on can take place

jundo cohen said...

Hi Jundo,

Do you agree, here on this public forum and in front of people, not to send me any more unsolicited email (as you promised to before), and not to try to involve me in any more of your DSI 'correction efforts'? (I don't even know if I'm a memeber of DSI for Christ's sake, or if I want to be!)

Regards,

Harry


Sorry, Harry. Sure. It was a misunderstanding by me. I thought you, Uku and Gustav were now leading groups through DSI, and thus were part of the network. Anyway, sorry, I will not send you anything.

I can also understand the emotions involved on your part. If you think and are trying to imply to people that I somehow cooked up the story about being physically assaulted, faked the injuries and photographs of the injuries, fooled the doctor, bribed Mr. Saito and the other witnesses, and risked committing a crime and losing my license by signing a false affidavit ... well, I can understand how you might dearly want to believe that given your close connection to people involved. However, that's not only defamation of character on your part, but shameful. I was threatened with physical violence by two people connected to DSI, one of whom acted on it.

On the other hand, I am telling you that I am willing to say that it can be left in the past, anyone (and I mean anyone) can fly off the handle about something, the black and blue marks are long healed, and we need to forgive, forget and move forward from here. We should move forward from here.

It is a shame that nobody in DSI, from Nishijima Roshi on down ever took responsibility, and that the wagons quickly circled, but that is just human nature too.

Gassho, Jundo

Anonymous said...

Was anyone able to find one example of Nishijima praising what Jundo calls Buddhism?

Transmission?

Whatever...we get it.
There are shades of opinion, Rob - no need to get snarky with 'anonymii' :)

Anonymous said...

I've a question:

Is it possible that the assault happened but Jundo has unintentionally mis-identified/mis-named who did it? Maybe he thinks it's somebody called...but it ain't.

Coz if he's making it up, that's very disturbed behaviour.

Just asking.

Lauren said...

HEY MYSTERION....

On "Meter". Have you heard this one?

A Jolly old gas man, named 'Peter.'
One day, while checking the meter,
Touch a leak with his light
And he rose out of sight,
And anyone who knows anything about poetry can also tell you he ruined the meter.

Enjoy!

Smoggyrob said...

Hi Anonymi:

Smoggyrob, Have you taken your precepts yet? Just curious.

Yes, I have, and I'm glad I did.

To the other Anonymi, transmission in Japan is a joke. I don't respect Brad because he's transmitted, and I sit with someone else who is not. I asked if there's one quote online that shows Nishijima doesn't think Jundo's Buddhism sucks. Is there?

Rob

Anonymous said...

...even if J was popped on the nose, by his own admission he wasn't invited, but pushed it.

He says he'll back off.
We'll see.

Anonymous said...

I asked if there's one quote online that shows Nishijima doesn't think Jundo's Buddhism sucks. Is there?

Maybe not, Rob (can't be bothered to look). You win ;-)

jundo cohen said...

Smoggy,

You will notice that the top 5 links on Roshi's blog up to today are

# Dogen Sangha
# Dogen Sangha Bristol
# Hardcore Zen
# Reality, anyone?
# Treeleaf Zendo

I saw Roshi on Tuesday. You can twist that if you want into my trying to "get close to him", but I say it was just my visiting my old teacher out of respect. In fact, he approved our ordaining 3 priests through Treeleaf this year, which will be done in the fall (we will officially announce that later).

Now, I will say it right now. I have told Nishijima Roshi that, in his old age, he has gone way way overboard with the "balance of the Autonomic Nervous System" idea (because he has ... he took something that has a little truth to it, and now uses it as an answer to everything), I have told him that his MMK translation is not up to snuff and he needs to be careful publishing that, I have told him that his ideas about the Jews running the world banks and picking the American president are wrong, and I have told him that sitting Zazen does not result in someone automatically leading a life in harmony with the Precepts (which is one explanation for the antics of some of his students), and I have told him other things too that are honest and need to be said.

In other words, I have not kissed the old man's ass. For that reason, the old son of a gun is not always so crazy about me. On the other hand, I think I am, in many ways, his most loyal servant for sometimes telling the emperor when he has no clothes.

Many in this Sangha just ignore the old man. Others just go along with whatever he says (I usually do, because he is 91 and we should sometimes do so out of respect). But I have also spoken up to him when I thought he was over the top, like on the MMK translation from hell (I do it because sometimes you have to tell grandpa that he has soiled himself and needs to change his pants ... ugly, but we tell him because we care).

So, Smoggy, if you think that Nishijima Roshi is someone who (I think you said) always sees "Reality" ... it is you who do not know Nishijima Roshi as well as many of us, apparently ignore the often strange and confused ramblings on his blog, and are living in a dream.

Gassho, Jundo

Thing 1 said...

Dead roadside Buddha.
Fleshy bones lay in the dust.
Watch hungry dogs fight.

Anonymous said...

Rob-

If transmisiion in Japan is such a joke - and it's true it is...if N's transmission don't mean diddly, then why is N's opinion such an important part of your case? Over-reliance on N's opinion of J allows J to post..what he's just posted.

Just trying to sort the whatsit from the thingy.

Harry said...

Jundo,

"I can also understand the emotions involved on your part. If you think and are trying to imply to people that I somehow cooked up the story about being physically assaulted, faked the injuries and photographs of the injuries, fooled the doctor, bribed Mr. Saito and the other witnesses, and risked committing a crime and losing my license by signing a false affidavit ... well, I can understand how you might dearly want to believe that given your close connection to people involved."

Needless to say your 'understanding' of me is, and always was, way wide of the mark. That's exactly the problem with relying on electronic comms.

"... However, that's not only defamation of character on your part, but shameful. I was threatened with physical violence by two people connected to DSI, one of whom acted on it."

Jundo, I'm not defaming you, I simply don't believe you as I have no reason to believe you and several sound reasons for not trusting you and your judgement. That you expect me to believe you is not my problem.

Thanks for agreeing not to send me any more email. I hope you'll stick to that this time.

Regards,

Harry.

Thing 2 said...

Furious minds spin
Webs of detailed argument
A fat horse's fart

Mysterion said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Thing 1 said...

"A rap on the nose can be, quite continental,
'cause dharma is a girl's best friend
A zafu is grand but it won't pay the rental
On your humble flat, or help you at the automat
the spark grows cold as we all grow old
And we all lose our lives in the end
But square cut or pear shaped
This bright pearl won't lose it's shape
Dharma is a girl's best friend"

Rich said...

Mysti, well said and the pics put everything in perspective.

jundo cohen said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Thing 2 said...

To post, or not to post--that is the question:
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The slings and arrows of outrageous comments
Or to take arms against a sea of bloggers
And by opposing end them. To lie, and sleep--
No more--and by a sleep to say we stop
The broadband, or the thousand natural shocks
That Dish(tm) is heir to. 'Tis a consummation
Devoutly to be wished. To wake, read, and weep--
To weep--perchance to scream: ay, here's the rub,
For in that screen's refresh what posts may come
When we have shuffled off this ego's spoil,
Must give us pause. There's the respect
That makes calm threading so short of life.
For who would bear the whips and scorns of time,
Th' oppressor's wrong, the proud man's contumely
The pangs of despised thoughts, the law's inlay,
The insolence of anonomi, and the spurns
That patient merit of th' unworthy takes,
When he himself might his on inputs make
Like a bare boobkin? Who would their souls lay bare,
To grunt and sweat in a weary online fight,
But that the dread of something after death,
The undiscovered country, from whose bourn
No traveller returns, puzzles us all,
And makes us rather spread those ills we have
Than to sit in silence that we know not of?
Thus conscience does make bloggers of us all,
And thus the native hue of one bright pearl
Is sicklied o'er with the pale cast of thought,
And a turning step of great pitch and moment
With this regard its reflections turn awry
And lose the name of real action.

Anonymous said...


Was anyone able to find one example of Nishijima praising what Jundo calls Buddhism? No?


Hey Rob, where do I collect my prize?

Blogger GUDO NISHIJIMA said...

Dear Ven Keishin,

Thank you very much for you becoming the member of Dogen Sangha, and I think that your question how we can find the true Master, who teaches you true Buddhism, is very important problem.

Fortunately, Oto, Jundo Cohen, are my students, and the auther of book entitled "Sit down and shut up" Ven Brad Warner is also my successor, therefore please study under them, and select your favarate one.

Unfortunately I haven't met Matsuoka Roshi yet, and so I cannot say anything about him.


https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=16723429&postID=6667529291183868611

Smoggyrob said...

Hi everyone:

Jundo, you are a creepy motherfucker. I knew this woman who used to call her aunt frequently, send her cards on every holiday, and visit her at the nursing home often. She didn't give a rat's ass about her aunt, but it worked, and she inherited a shit-load of money when the aunt died.

I fully expect you to, after Nishijima had passed, twist your visits into revelations. Sure, we had some rough patches (where he called me a sravaka and said I didn't know shit about Buddhism), but after that we shared tea and he taught me a great deal. I was closer to him than anyone else and this is what he taught me...". I wouldn't be surprised if you go so far as to say that he didn't mean what he said about you, and that he was just "teaching you the true meaning of suffering." Sounds crazy, but then I think you're crazy. I encourage everyone to watch what you say after Nishijima's death.

As for you transmitting to others, he approved it? So what? Would you have not transmitted if he hadn't? Someone with transmission can transmit to whomever he wants. As far as I'm concerned TL is a dead branch of Zen headed by a empty robe.

I don't get Nishijima's emphasis on the ANS. I believe it's true, but I don't understand why he promotes it so heavily. I have reserved judgement on that, as I have about many things I don't understand. I can't follow his thought on his online MMK, but I don't knock him for it because English isn't his native language. I look forward to the published version he's putting out with Brad, and I'll read it and some other translations of MMK then. I've never heard Nishijima say anything about the Jews, and since I think you are a liar and have a messiah complex, I put no weight to your words. As far as the primacy of zazen goes, I believe Roshi, Sawaki, and other Ancestors completely. I also believe that you can sit in something that looks like zazen for decades and never sit zazen at all, which explains you. And no, you haven't kissed the old man's ass. You've said he's senile, that his teaching (not just his recent teaching) is insufficient for a true understanding of Buddhism, and one must study with other teachers to gain such an understanding. Yet you claim your authority to teach from him, and no one else has ever given you transmission.

Your understanding of the precepts is sophomoric. You continually claim that others are not following them, which exhibits a clear non-understanding of them. The precepts are personal and if anyone says that someone else isn't following them, the first person is in error. Buddhism isn't about running off a list of sixteen precepts before you take each action in your life, to ensure that you're not violating one of them. The precepts as written are a two-dimensional description of a multi-dimensional reality. You just do not get it, because you don't understand the first thing about Buddhism. You can't stop yourself from doing evil by trying to. Everyone tries not to do evil, even serial killers. You can notice yourself acting, and the result of that noticing, over time, will result in behavior others call "doing good and not doing evil". The best method I've found for noticing what I'm doing is sitting zazen regularly. And as for your "living in a dream" comment, ooo, good one! Did you read that in a book?

Rob

Smoggyrob said...

Hi everyonr:

Some have asked why I respect Nishijima if I think he is fallible and made a mistake transmitting to Jundo. I don't think anyone is infallible and yet I respect some and don't others. Nishijima's writing, particularly in To Meet the Real Dragon, strikes me the same way Brad's teaching does, as realistic. I like what's happened since I started sitting and studying Buddhism with Dogen Sangha and I credit Nishijima and Brad. They've both said a lot of things. So far, I've either found these things to be true and in accord with reality, or I have failed to understand them. I haven't found anything to be untrue.

Anonymous, that quote shows N saying that Jundo is his student. I asked for a quote where N praises J's understanding of Buddhism. No prize, but thanks for playing.

I gotta' go,

Rob

Anonymous said...

Hey Rob,

Don't weezle out you weeze. He is obviously calling Jundo a True Master

your question how we can find the true Master, who teaches you true Buddhism, is very important problem.

Fortunately, Oto, Jundo Cohen, are my students,

jundo cohen said...

Hi Rob,

I fully expect you to, after Nishijima had passed, twist your visits into revelations. Sure, we had some rough patches (where he called me a sravaka and said I didn't know shit about Buddhism), but after that we shared tea and he taught me a great deal. I was closer to him than anyone else and this is what he taught me...". I wouldn't be surprised if you go so far as to say that he didn't mean what he said about you, and that he was just "teaching you the true meaning of suffering." Sounds crazy, but then I think you're crazy. I encourage everyone to watch what you say after Nishijima's death.

Are you like one of those 9-11 conspiracy nuts?

You are a real sleaze, my friend, and I say that in the lovingest terms. So, after I murder Nishijima by switching his medicine with poison, and steal all the money in his retirement account, I will claim to be suddenly the recipient of this secret teaching?

And that is why I publicly get on the internet and write openly about how I disagree with some of his stranger ideas and think he is very confused when his diabetes kicks in. Because I am trying to make it look "how close we are"??

I am going to push "Right Speech" here and just say it: You are an ass or, at least, doing a damn good impression of one. And you have your head very far up Nishijima Roshi's ass.

Oh, and thank you to the person who found the "True Master" quote. That is worth a chuckle and is a keeper.

Gassho, Jundo

jundo cohen said...

And goodnight.

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