Wednesday, February 24, 2010

CAR CHASE AKRON 1983


If you're viewing on Facebook it's http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPT4eaFuUEc

I just discovered this piece of awesomeness. It's apparently from a very low budget action movie shot in Akron, Ohio in 1980 and released in '83. This is what Akron looked like when Zero Defex was going strong and I was first discovering Zen. How did I ever make it out alive?

And don't forget part two:




The waterfall-like thingy is right around the corner from where I used to live. I spent a lot of time there. Never saw guys karate fighting in the water, though.

For Facebook people the link is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQmQX79HMnQ

308 comments:

«Oldest   ‹Older   201 – 308 of 308
Harry said...

201!

...A Minor Space Oddity.

Rich said...

Rob, do your hateful comments have anything to do with Brad's leaving LA for a few months maybe longer? On the crazy comments meter you definitely are in the red zone.

Anonymous said...

To Rob,

The Ten Grave Precepts:

6.
See the perfection; Do not speak of others errors and faults
7.
Realize self and other as one; Do not elevate the self and blame others
9.
Actualize harmony; Do not be angry

And for the hell of it,
3.
Honor the body; Do not misuse sexuality
(cause we all know you get a hard on off of flaming Jundo, might be whacking a few times as well!)

And don't try to say that you are not angry cause your words cleary send out that vibe. And your about me profile: looks like that was strategicaly placed.
After precepts,it is normal to mess up from times to times, but you are not even trying. Looks like you are out for blood!
And for your comment after transmission in Japan being a joke, there will always be people who will disagree with their teachers, thats apparent throughout Buddhist history. Get over it! And transmission in the West does not have a good rep either. IE, R.B. Anyways, dialogue is good but it seems like you're out to break Jundo.

Anonymous said...

Is it over yet?
Ha! Not quite.

Rob,

I'm not the anon who posted the 'positive' G-blog quote (it's confusing, I know, there are at least 2 of us...but you're doing fine!)...the meaning's clear: Gudo is referring a new student to Jundo and Brad - as masters. That's a recommendation; a vote of confidence; a positive comment. On this unimportant, nit-picking point, someone gotcha! Nothing's riding on it. Give em the prize!


You hold your opinion with unshakeable conviction. Seems nothing will change it (I'm not trying to: I have no contact with the guy and he's done nothing to hurt me). It's just that what you say seems to contain more heat than light. It amounts to "I don't trust a word Jundo says/I don't think he's a true Buddhist and Gudo agrees with me."

I'd like to know why Jundo is so despised by some. There must be reasons - Harry's given indications to explain his - but what you've written so far is all opinion and don't tell me much.

Maybe you're not seeking to convince anyone, but just venting your feelings?

Harry said...

"There must be reasons - Harry's given indications to explain his - but what you've written so far is all opinion and don't tell me much."

Hi,

I don't despise Jundo: I don't trust him, and I think he's a whack-job, and a pain-in-the-ass, but I don't despise the man.

I wish him and his well.

Regards,

Harry.

Anonymous said...

I hear you, Harry, and believe you.
I expressed myself badly.
I've never thought you despised him.

Sounds like Rob, and some others I've spoken to have very strong feelings indeed, though.

CynicalBoy said...

Jundo versus Brad
And why do we care so much
Who is right or wrong?

Anonymous said...

how did this whole Jundo thread start?

Anonymous said...

Brad's not in this one, cynical. It's Rob and Jundo.

R to B said...

It's Rob shaking Treeleaf and potential treeleaf members faith in their teacher or potential teacher.

Else than this it's truly just Jundo's water under the bridge.

PhilBob-SquareHead said...

My 10yr-old son recently inquired, "what is zen?" Immediately thinking of this blog, I responded, "ARGUING!!!"

Anonymous said...

i slept through the last 100 posts. can somebody fill me in?

Anonymous said...

Haha. Thats funny Phil.. You crack me up. Know why its funny tho? Cause its true! Arguing all the way down.

大きなペニスアール said...

I sit here tonight
Reading this blog carefully
I find patience now

Anonymous said...

Harry, I once appreciated your intelligence and irreverence here and at Treeleaf. I liked your ability to call a spade a spade, but now I think you are a manipulating and miserable prick who should just shut the fuck up about things he knows nothing about.

Rob, the same goes double for you. As Jundo said, I think you are a whack job - and I don't mean that in a loving sense.

And, when all is said and done, I think Brad is pretty much a prick for not stepping in here, on his own blog, to cool the fires and try to bring some semblence of peace here. He can use any excuse he wants, but his lack of action here shows him, I think, to be dishonorable and a coward. I loved Brad's first book - it brought me to practice. But that last one was a nasty, self-indulgent piece of crap. I was going to give his fourth book a try, but I am just about done with his brand of masturbatory, cowardice trash that he passes off as the dharma. If anything I think jundo is too nice in his assessment of the utter disfunction here.

Brad Warner said...

I suppose I should be proud that this blog offers a forum for discussing matters which should very clearly should be discussed on other forums but are not permitted there.

Frankly I am in the middle of moving house and cannot possibly even read most of what's been posted here. So I have nothing further to add but the observation that these matters are really not appropriate here.

Having made that observation and having expressed my opinion on that matter, you have my permission to carry on discussing whatever you like. I don't screen the comments here. So fire away!

P.S. One item did pop out in my skimming: "There could be questions of sexual relationships between (DSI) member teachers and students." Oh dear! Could this possibly allude to something I wrote about in great detail in a book that was Amazon's #1 selling Buddhist book for about three months after it was released? Shhhhhh... Maybe someone will find out!

Mysterion said...

Smoggyrob sed:
"As far as I'm concerned TL is a dead branch of Zen headed by a empty robe."

Yeah, but even if that's true, you shouldn't print it right here in cyberland for all to see. Certainly it is an opinion and each and every one of us (except in Italy) is entitled to an opinion. (Well, under Bush, we had to go to fenced in "free speech zones" miles away from "the Cheeney & W" puppet show to express that opinion).

Be careful what you say, TL MU could take himself seriously. I sincerely doubt that there are many others that follow him in this vein - and that is already his problem alone. Let him deal with is in the silence and solitude of his own effort.

Besides, they just announced his table for dinner: "Party of 1."

Let it rest.

Mysterion said...

did someone mention?

"Jealous rage is unbecoming."

I wonder what living 300 lives as a fox is like? Or cabbage?

a few of us are destined to discover this truth...

anonymous said...

anon @ 5:12, you are not alone in your views. I could have written exactly what you wrote. I think there's something a little off in this whole branch of zen, maybe Jundo included. But of the whole whacky bunch, he seems the least delusional.

Mysterion said...

Playing the Victim: This involves portraying oneself as an innocent victim of circumstance and/or someone's behavior in order to gain sympathy, evoke compassion and thereby get something from others. One thing that covert-aggressive personalities count on is the fact that less calloused and less hostile personalities usually can't stand to see anyone suffering. Therefore, the tactic is simple. Convince your targets that you are suffering in some way, and enlist their support in the relief of your distress.

In our story, XYZ is good (but not very good) at playing the victim. He had a few of his targets believing that he (XYZ) was the victim of an extremely unfair decision (because of the failing mental capacity of the decision maker) and the target of unwarranted hostility.

He tries to manipulate his targets because those targets should believe what he believes and that supposed pool of belief serves as an excuse for his undisciplined aggression."

Sometimes even 'gifted people' require professional counseling. There are often retreats (sometimes involuntary) for them at which they can cool their heels for days or weeks and adjust to their meds while attending group or private counseling.

Neurotic people dream of castles in the sky.
Psychotic people move into those castles.
Psychiatrists collect rent from both.

Anonymous said...

BTW check out THIS bass playing.

Anonymous said...

Mysterion,

Do you really believe your own bullshit? You seem like one frustrated guy who probably feels ignored in the "real world" so you live in your own deluded little cyber-realty where you're the wise tenured prof. You're not as smart as you think. Shut the fuck up and get a frucking life.

Anonymous said...

I can't believe it's a bass!

Mysterion said...

nony:

What is it?

touché?

I am quite satisfied with the way my life played out. Thrice retired, I am now just hanging around for the closing credits.

Anonymous said...

Sometimes even 'gifted people' require professional counseling.

Maybe you could recommend your own psychitrist, Hysterion. Although, on second thought, he doesn't seem to be doing much good with you.

226 said...

226

Anonymous said...

Thanks chap, I lost count.

Ran K. said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Ran K. said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Ran K. said...

Brad:

I suppose I should be proud that this blog offers a forum for discussing matters which should very clearly should be discussed on other forums but are not permitted there”.

Does this refer to the benefit or detrimence-or-disadvantages of using the web for teaching the Dharma, or does it refer to the question of whether an acknowledged Dharma heir of a Buddhist Patriarch is fit to be teaching?

This seems to be the point, doesn’t it?

Else – “… I have nothing further to add but the observation that these matters are really not appropriate here” – SR is easy to miss on this one. Not now I suppose.

I haven’t read much of the recent posting but in case his point would have been right in the first place – warning people against this unqualified teacher – Brad could not have made his last observation. Could he? He might stand aside and shut up (sit down if he can spare the time for it) but he’d see SR as doing good.

[One last point – else than the two questions mentioned above I see the discussion between SR and H (Bushmills) and between Jundo as quite meaningless. Else than what it might contribute to the two other questions, that is.]

Anonymous said...

actually I have also wondered what you are cooking up and will serve upon Master Nishijima's passing.
I also do not think you are to be trusted

this is a shame

all of it

greed, anger and ignorance, isn't this what it boils down to?

better to stick to your role as a zendergarten teacher, and to do that with your full attention and let everything else just be everything else

better to stay in your own blogosphere: there is plenty to do If there is still so much time left on your hands, I suggest taking up a hobby or two.
Maybe you and your wife would like to learn ballroom dancing?

many things many many things are far better than this

conathym

Anonymous said...

conathym

thought I was posting after Jundo's comment, but I was reading page 1 and thought I was posting at the end of that page!!

Lordy lordy, my post ends up half a page down on the 2nd page


drawback as anonymous: no way to delete


sorry folks

Mike Hinsley said...

Netiquette says it's probably the wrong place to talk about this stuff. Zen Etiquette says it's probably the wrong place.

I know Jundo likes to have a "Play Nice, Members only" thing over at Treeleaf but that is utterly pointless if Jundo and others then go on a rampage over here.

I think it would help matters greatly if over on Treeleaf there was a 'Guest' forum where it was clear that anyone could post and where these things could be said.

"Play Nice at home and then fight with the neighbours" is most definitely not healthy.

"dear friend I think you are one fucked up shit" is neither nice nor honest.

Rich said...

In the previous thread there were 9 references to Jundo before he 'spoke up for the online zen experience'. In this thread there were 29 references to Jundo before he spoke up in defense of attacks, insults, speculations and fabrications. Now the revisionists are saying that they are so uncomfortable with this reality we need someone to blame for it and you guessed it - it's Jundo.

Brad said 'So I have nothing further to add but the observation that these matters are really not appropriate here.' Yes, there were matters raised here that were not appropriate and those individuals should look deeply and ask why did I do that, why did I feel like that. The way that you do it makes all the difference. And the way is with love and compassion.

Anonymous said...

"there were matters raised here that were not appropriate and those individuals should look deeply and ask why did I do that, why did I feel like that."

I have watched a few of Jundo's webcasts when he visited N in his apartment in Tokyo. One of the things that shocked me was Jundo's habit of directing N like he was his favorite pet monkey. I'll never forget him continually insisting that N gassho into the camera.. I really felt sorry for the old man then and started thinking differently about Jundo.

anon #108 said...

Yeah, it's long - but it's Sunday.

Hi non-anonymous anonymous and anonymous @ 5.12pm, with whom s/he agreed -

[Harry should] shut the fuck up about things he knows nothing about.

Harry is well able to defend himself, but as far as this relates to the wider issue of shutting the fuck up about things you know nothing about...

I know a little about what Harry most likely must know. I don't know who you both are, and you may know more than Harry. From what little I know, for that to be true you'd have to have witnessed or taken part in the assault Jundo alleges, and have been party the cc'd emails he refers to. If you haven't witnessed, or been party to, then you know a lot less than Harry.

From what little I know, Jundo alleges he was assaulted by someone personally known to Harry. That person denies it - which leads Harry not to believe Jundo. (I don't know, but wonder if Jundo is sure of the name of the person he accuses? If he is, the either that person is lying, or Jundo is). I find both possibilities hard to believe. But as I'm not involved, I don't care. I'm very curious, but I don't know, and I don't care. I can easily see why Harry does. (Rob, knowing Brad, also has his reasons to care).

Also, Harry and Jundo agree that Harry has received angry emails from Jundo - which leads Harry not to trust Jundo. So, in a real sense, Harry knows. But maybe you know more.

What do I think about it all, I ask myself.

I met Jundo once at a one-day retreat, but that told me very little. I don't know him. I have read some of what he's written at Treeleaf. His writing and presentation style are not my cup of tea, but what he writes about sounds like it's in Dogen and Gudo's Buddhist ball-park to me. He's not helped or hindered me personally. So I have no strong feelings about Jundo.

I do know somebody that does know him, a little. That person also knows the alleged assailant, and has been the recipient of emails from Jundo. He does not have a good opinion of Jundo. Not at all. That's his opinion, and although I respect him, I feel no duty, need or pressure to adopt it.

All of us commenting, bar one or two, know absolutely nothing, or next to absolutely nothing about this...whatever it is. One thing is clear to me: Dogen Sangha International does not exist. It's a notion; a concept (ask Nagarjuna). The reality is that - usually - I sit once a month with a group led by one of Gudo's Dharma heirs. I have, and sometimes read, books articles and blogs written and published by Gudo and his students. My real experience of "Dogen Sangha" has been (almost always) a calm, considered, respectful, stimulating, no-bullshit, life enhancing/changing kinda thing. My guess is that, or something similar, is the experience of all the very small groups around the world who call themselves Dogen Sangha, or are led by Gudo's heirs (including, it's clear, Jundo's own). I'm grateful.

That's what I know.

I'm noticing that this 'car-wreck', this 'hatred'; this 'dysfunctional sangha' ONLY manifests when Jundo and DS interact (of course this commenters on this blog are not Dogen Sangha). To the extent that there's a parting of ways among Gudo's Dharma-heirs and Jundo, it's a schism. Old as the hills. Perhaps if Jundo gives up his occasional efforts to unite himself with the parties, those who - for whatever reasons - don't trust him would have less cause to repel him, and he would have less cause to defend himself.

It's a shame Brad can't mention his objections to online Zen, or Jundo can't stick up for online Zen without folks assuming it's all personal and it all kicking off again. But maybe it's best that Brad says what he wants here, and Jundo says what he wants there. Maybe that's the way more conducive to peace and harmony (if you like that sort of thing)...

anon #108 said...

...For the time being that's the only constructive suggestion I can make. And I felt I should make one, otherwise I'm just telling you all what I think I know and don't know, and what think I feel and don't feel. And who cares about that?

anon #108 said...

I'll now go sit without that.

Anonymous said...

I think that Jundo showed once again what a class act he is, despite all the drunks and haters pulling their hair and stamping their feet calling for blood.

Jinzang said...

Criticism often feels like the right thing to do, but if it has any constructive value, it's to change the behavior of the person criticized. However, pride prevents people from hearing criticism and taking it to heart, so it almost always does not achieve its intended end. So I find that I do it less and less. Though I am just an ordinary person and get angry sometimes and say what I shouldn't.

Anonymous said...

I have watched a few of Jundo's webcasts when he visited N in his apartment in Tokyo. One of the things that shocked me was Jundo's habit of directing N like he was his favorite pet monkey. I'll never forget him continually insisting that N gassho into the camera.. I really felt sorry for the old man then and started thinking differently about Jundo.

Pet monkey? Really? It seemed quite respectful to me.

http://blog.beliefnet.com/treeleafzen/2008/10/sit-a-long-with-jundo-classic-2.html

anon #108 said...

I think that Jundo showed once again what a class act he is, despite all the drunks and haters pulling their hair and stamping their feet calling for blood.

You like Jundo and find his teaching helpful? Excellent.

Can I suggest that calling those who feel differently "drunks and haters" only leads to the sort of atmosphere in which people stamp their feet amd call for blood.

anon #108 said...

Really am gonna sit now.
Really!

Harry said...

"...Yes, there were matters raised here that were not appropriate and those individuals should look deeply and ask why did I do that, why did I feel like that."

Hi Rich,

Here's my motivation:

Jundo comes here and trades on the self image of being a goody-two-shoes, a non-Angry Buddhist, a moral pillar of the Buddhist community as opposed to us foul-mouthed, alcoholic, sloppy half-assed pseudo-Buddhists etc etc etc...

My experience of Jundo is quite different to the image that he likes to project and trade under. I don't trust him at all, for the reasons outlined in the messages above.

Despite what he wants to project, I think he's a wolf in sheep's clothing, or I've clearly seen him behave as such at least (he sent me the emails remember, I didn't go looking for it and actually asked him not to send me stuff).

He's also a Buddhist Teacher who people clearly place hopes, trust and aspirations in (as I did at one time). For this reason I have no quams whatsoever at expressing the 'dissonance' I percieve between Jundo's preferred image of himself and what he actually does. It's just an opinion. I understand that people have other opinions based on their experience, and that's fine by me.

He is isolating himself more and more all the time. I continue to wish him well but, until he changes his behavoir and gets a grip on his knickers I, like many others, just want him to go away and be irrelavant... which is sad, but there are substantial reasons for it. He's causing people trouble and upset. People (in this situation at least) just don't dislike, or distrust, people for no good reason despite what Jundo wants us to believe.

Then again, maybe he will sue and legally intimidate us all into drinking tea with him and it will be honky dory, but, it doesn't seem likely.

Regards,

Harry.

Anonymous said...

This is the pet monkey video. Disgraceful.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7913514770156421163#

jundo cohen said...

Jundo comes here and trades on the self image of being a goody-two-shoes, a non-Angry Buddhist, a moral pillar of the Buddhist community as opposed to us foul-mouthed, alcoholic, sloppy half-assed pseudo-Buddhists etc etc etc...

Okay, Harry, that is enough. I never sent you a single angry e-mail. I ask you again to release the supposed e-mail. You have my permission, and if there is any confidentiality issue regarding some other person, I am sure that will be easy to edit out.

I have never sent you a single angry e-mail. If you have such a mail, produce it.

I have had enough of the innuendo, and that "I head a guy, who knew a guy, who met Jundo once and said he is a scoundrel" talk here. I think, Harry, that if you do not release the supposed e-mails and the Affidavit, I should now do so. I will put it all up on a web page, the 11 page affidavit with the medical report and the photographs of the bruises, plus the contact information for witneses, and just let everyone judge for themselves. I am tired of this.

Produce the e-mail, Harry!

Gassho, Jundo

Harry said...

Hi Jundo,

I'm mainly talking about all the 'Affidavit' email... but if you want an offensive email (offensive to both me and your teacher) that I was sent by you then please review the one you sent me in relation to my having a conversation with Gudo on his blog where I committed the sin-against-Jundo of saying something that Gudo agreed with (you apologised and admitted that it was aggressive afterwards, remember? Also, you'd done something similar to Jordan at the time). Remember that I had already asked you, Jundo Cohen, Buddhist Teacher (who I've never asked to be my teacher), to stop sending me unsolicited, private email at this point:

[The quotes are from Gudo's blog, the email is entitled 'Good Comedy']:

------------------------------

[Jundo]Hi Harry,

Nishijima Roshi wrote: "I interpret that the Master Dogen's expression that "Think about this concrete state beyond thinking" suggests that "Just Sit!"

Dear Roshi,

I think these two statements work very well together and are in balance. Together they suggest to me that we should practice/realise our own real sitting as something ineffable... as the koan realised.

"Just Sit!" helps us avoid seeing the ineffable as some transcendant state outside of our own real actions. 'Think... beyond thinking' avoids the extreme of seeing the sitting posture as some sort of static, lifeless material state of 'enlightenment'.

Thank-you very much.

Regards,

Hanrei [Harry].

[Jundo]I strongly suspect that Roshi can make neither head nor tail of what you are saying, and (frankly) I have come to doubt that you really have a clear idea of what he is saying ... but, yet ...

[Gudo]Dear Harry San,

I have agreed with your interpretations totally.

[Jundo] I love a good comedy. Kiss Ass! :-)

Gassho, Jundo

--------------------------------

...I (above) printed your admission of 'aggression' and apology in relation to my publishing this on my blog, I'll post it again if you require it.

I accepted your apology, and your promise not to send me mail, but the mail didn't stop; it got more serious and aggressive (i.e. your affidavit mails which I have no reason to believe are not just the product of a dark fantasy).

Regards,

Harry.

Anonymous said...

Harry,
How many times are you going to repeat the same shit? You're saying the same thing everytime you post except you try to add some analogy about Jundo being a douche or something. And what's wrong with Jundo trying to be "goody-two-shoes, a non-Angry Buddhist"? You make nosense. I think most of the people that are talking trash on this blog need to look at their own practice and the precepts again if they are serious. This goes double for Harry and Rob!

anon #108 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Harry said...

Hi Anon,

Jundo just asked me to post it again (see his last message).

Regards,

H.

Anonymous said...

If Harry knew how to work his email half as good as he knows how to work this blog then he wouldve blocked Jundos email address a long time ago.

Harry said...

p.s. I have no probs with anyone being a goody-two-shoes, but when they start to criticise others for being angry, alcoholic, foul-mouthed etc etc it begs an examination of their own 'goody-two-shoe-ness' methinks.

Regards,

H.

anon #108 said...

anon @ 7.17-

Do you KNOW anything about this?
The 'assault'?
The emails?

No?

Then perhaps you should withold your opinion. You should certainly avoid THIS kind of thing if you're trying to promote peace and precept-observance:

"Harry,
How many times are you going to repeat the same shit?... You make nosense. ...talking trash on this blog."

See how that works ;-)

jundo cohen said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
jundo cohen said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
jundo cohen said...

Harry,


Kiss Ass! :-)

Harry, THAT is your definition an angry e-mail (saying "kiss ass" with a little smiley face next to it)?????. I know you are a sensitive guy who blushes so easily, so the little smiley face must have seemed really aggressive to you. Anyway, I believe (I may be mistaken) that was from several years ago, maybe before I booted your butt out of Treeleaf and we were still speaking (or even after, but I mistakenly thought we were still speaking). Am I wrong? My Buddha, how many years ago is that thing too?

No, Harry, listen, will you please produce any or all of the claimed "angry e-mails" regarding the affidavit and assault?

Time to put up!

Gassho, Jundo

jundo cohen said...

And thank you to the persons who dug up the old video of Nishijima Roshi sitting Zazen with me on our netcast, the one where I am said to have treated him like my "favorite pet monkey. I'll never forget him continually insisting that N gassho into the camera."

Here is the video of Roshi's other time sitting with our netcast, and you can see from the smile on his face what a bad time he was having and how much he was haranged.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3984868963508952055#

Seriously, are some of you folks for real? Is this really the best you can come up with? :-)

Gassho, Jundo

Harry said...

Jundo,

The whole tone of that email is clearly aggressive and offensive as you admitted yourself at the time:

"...Jordan is right that I have been too aggressive in this discussion, I have been aggitated and it has been bothering me more than I knew, and I was taking it out on you without realizing it.

But that's just a sideshow.

I find the 'avidaffit' emails angry and aggressive. I find threatening people with serious legal action without any visible third party corroboration as the action of someone who is out to harm somebody with no good grounds.

You know your case isn't good without witness statements (why do we have to email people for them... and do you think those people will be happy to have their email addresses published in that way?) or else you were a very bad lawer. People who I'm in touch with say its all crap, but I'm not the one accusing someone, so I'm not required to produce anything at all.

This sort of action probably seems reasonable and fine to you, but to others it doesn't. That's just the way it is.

Hey, why don't you publish the witness email addresse here (if you're going to do it anyway) and we can check it out for ourselves?

Regards,

Harry.

jundo cohen said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
jundo cohen said...

Dear Harry,

Please produce 1 angry e-mail, or any email in which I was less than polite and trying to work a peaceful reconciliation. Are you out of your banana?

You have pushed me ... I am going to say it. I say it knowing that, if anything I am going to say now is a lie, he can sue my pants off for libel. He could own my house if anything I am about to say in public is untrue.

Now, your teacher, who is usually a very very quiet and soft spoken individual who would not hurt a fly, went ballistic when I went to speak to him peacefully about my planned, passive "Zazen in" at the Tokei in. He lost it, pulled and pushed me across the room and threw several good punches at me in the chest. I never raised my voice with the man, I never even raised my hands to defend myself. He did this at the Saturday Zazen sitting, so everybody who was there heard or saw most or it (he was screaming pretty good).

After that, he made up a weird version (that I will publish), and folks like you and him have tried to make it like I am lying. I resent that. I can forgive someone losing their temper, that is human. I am not mad at him. But I do not appreciate you and him trying to make it look like I cooked this up. How dare you. Were is you self respect?

Look, I will repeat the offer I made too last year ... and I will do it on the internet here, and I will print the cashed check on the internet if I need (which I won't). I will donate $10,000 US to a charity of Peter's choosing if you or anybody can show that my story is not true in any important point. In fact, just get Mr. Saito to say so (one of Roshi's oldest and closest students, and a man I believe to be of impecable honesty) and I will make the donation.

I have made the above statement in public, knowing that I could get my ass sued off if it is not true.

Again, I hold no grudge about someone "getting his Irish up" and losing it. It happens, no bid deal. However, I do make a big deal about being called a liar.

How dare you, and how dare your teacher lie about his own conduct. Shame and disgrace on both of you.

Gassho, Jundo

kenzen said...

This thread along with many others in this blog are very sad:( There is no care or compassion in the voice of most of the commenters here. I don't know any of the accused or accusers, I just read some of these threads and it gets to the point where it doesn't matter who did what. It seems like sometimes people just call Jundo out cause they know he will comment and thus begin entertainment for the day. There is no true dialogue here. It has become serious. People are trying to deeply hurt each other on here. There is too much pride going on. It is a shame.

Harry said...

I have not told any lies, Jundo, and your insistence that I have is quite telling. You clearly see me as belonging to some 'axis of evil' that I do not belong to. I like my teacher, I don't like you: That's not his fault.

I've merely said that I do not believe you. I think your version of it is a load of crap, and I have no good reason to think otherwise.

Where are the third party witness statements to back up your claims?

Who do we get in touch with to corroborate your story?

You are making a serious accusation, it is up to you to provide the evidence from independent sources to back it up. I have not been provided with this and, yes, I do think you are unreasonable enough to risk making a false affidavit. No offence, but that's what I think.

You can email me the contacts privately if you like and I will report here.

Regards,

Harry.

anon #108 said...

People are trying to deeply hurt each other on here.

I don't think so, kenzen. I think we're trying to understand ourselves and the world.

- Pretty compassionate, huh ;-)

Smoggyrob said...

Hi everyone:

I'll respect Brad's observation and stop.

Rob

jundo cohen said...

I've merely said that I do not believe you. I think your version of it is a load of crap, and I have no good reason to think otherwise.

Where are the third party witness statements to back up your claims?

Who do we get in touch with to corroborate your story?

You are making a serious accusation, it is up to you to provide the evidence from independent sources to back it up. I have not been provided with this and, yes, I do think you are unreasonable enough to risk making a false affidavit. No offence, but that's what I think.


Are you out of your mind?

Please tell your teacher and Mr. Brad that one or both of them should contact me in the morning. I am taking your challenge. I am contacting my Japanese lawyer here, and I am going to make a civil claim and take those statements you request under oath. How dare you.

Now, I am still willing to let this slide. Buddhists should forgive, not be suing each other ... especially Buddhist brothers. However, if you and your teacher are going to imply what you are implying, I will do what you wish.

Now, I will say this in public ... I will sue for the equivalent of $1.00. It is not about money. It is about putting the truth on the record. Nothing more. I would never threaten Peter's livelihood, his house or family financially. It is not about that. I have no agression here, and just want those under oath statements you have requested.

You are a piece of work, Harry.

Gassho, Jundo

kenzen said...

Anon#108 said:
"I don't think so, kenzen. I think we're trying to understand ourselves and the world."

I think zazen would be a better alternative:)
Gassho

anon #108 said...

Fair point, kenzen.

Harry said...

Hi Jundo,

What have my own actions to do with my teacher in this?

I'm questioning a clear weakness of your accusation: there are no witness accounts, and I don't accept your account. Do you really expect me to? You sent me the affidavit independantly of my teacher. This is entirely my own enquiry.

If people saw these alleged events, why are there no statements from them?

If you'll provide me with the elderly gentleman's (the witness) email address (as you suggested earlier) I'll get in touch with him myself to clarify... as an individual person.

Regards,

Harry.

jundo cohen said...

Kenzen

Blogger kenzen said...

Anon#108 said:
"I don't think so, kenzen. I think we're trying to understand ourselves and the world."

I think zazen would be a better alternative:)
Gassho


I so much agree with you, that folks should all sit Zazen and share a cup of tea, and mutually forgive and forget.

But I have folks hear accusing me of serious charges.

As I said, I am making the claim for $1.00. The reason I need to make the claim at all is that is the only way legally to get the statements under oath. All I want is that, not to take any money from Peter.

What is more, if folks will just say that it was a misunderstanding, that maybe things got a little hotter under than collar than meant, we can forget the whole thing. Let's all sit down, mutually look to the future, sit Zazen and move on.

But until that happens, I need to clear this up.

Gassho, Jundo

anon #108 said...

When I worked in the law - criminal law - I was frequently astonished by the entirely different accounts honest, sincere witnesses to the same events gave. It's a notorious problem in criminal law, the reliability of witness statements - and not only in matters of detail...

This is just as true, sometimes more so, for the participants in an altercation. Who did what first? Who attacked who, or were both parties acting in self-defence? Was someone being aggresively struck, or rather, perhaps, grasped - maybe in an effort to firmly remove them?

All of which might be totally irrelevant to this incident...

I'm just saying.

anon #108 said...

Jundo suggested: What is more, if folks will just say that it was a misunderstanding, that maybe things got a little hotter under than collar than meant, we can forget the whole thing. Let's all sit down, mutually look to the future, sit Zazen and move on.

How about removing the last clause, "Let's all sit down, mutually look to the future, sit Zazen and move on."? - Seems that what caused the problem in the first place ;)

Anonymous said...

Lawyers are the worst..

anon #108 said...

Let's hope you're never in trouble, 9.01 am.

laughingsquid said...

Jundo- Man up, turn the computer off, walk away.

Pond, frog, plop.

Anonymous said...

anon#108: I'm probably not the first person to ever make that observation..
but thank you, let's hope so.

jundo cohen said...

I'm questioning a clear weakness of your accusation: there are no witness accounts, and I don't accept your account. Do you really expect me to? You sent me the affidavit independantly of my teacher. This is entirely my own enquiry.

If people saw these alleged events, why are there no statements from them?


There are no statements because I had dropped the matter, let it slide, as a Buddhist should. But you and your teacher have continued with these lies and innuendos, and you are requesting witness statements under oath. I will get them and publicize them.

Harry, it is you who has proven he cannot be trusted. I am going to now give you Mr. Saito's email as you, Harry, can be trusted as an independent emissary of the truth. Fear not, you will have Mr. Saito's statement soon enough. Here is a picture of Mr. Saito, he is the older Japanese man on the far right. Many of the the folks who have been to Dogen Sangha in Japan know him well. A familiar face around Dogen Sangha for many years. Other people in that photograph also witnessed these events. Nishijima Roshi spoke with Mr. Saito in my presence of heard the truth.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/renfield/4149526457/

I repeat, all I want are those statements under oath. I am not suing anybody for a dime or to go to court. I want your teacher's version of events under oath.

Gassho, Jundo

Rich said...

Harry, you are implying that Jundo is lying or making up the story of his assault or at least being roughed up at Tokei In. Since you were not there, maybe you can share why you feel this way and what Peter has said about it. Or has Peter already made a public statement about this?

Also, please believe in yourself 100%.

jundo cohen said...

Let me repeat ... it is just because I am being accused of perpetrating a fraud and committing a possible criminal offense. I cannot overlook that, as much as I want to.

Anyway, this is enough for tonight.

Harry said...

Hi Jundo,

Can you point out where I lied?

Again, I said I don't believe you. I need proof. That's not lying.

You shouldn't call someone a liar who has not lied.

Regards,

Harry.

jundo cohen said...

This is just as true, sometimes more so, for the participants in an altercation. Who did what first? Who attacked who, or were both parties acting in self-defence? Was someone being aggresively struck, or rather, perhaps, grasped - maybe in an effort to firmly remove them?

Sorry, I have to respond to this. I never raised my voice, let alone a hand ... either in self defense or in aggression. As I was being pounded in the chest, I kept my arms tightly pressed at my sides, and merely repeated that Peter should stop. I was in super-pacifist mode that day, bearing Zazen and an offer to share a meal and "Buddhist Brotherhood" ... and I never lost that composure even (and especially when) the violence started. So, there are no two sides here. Period. I never raised a hand, not even raised my voice.

jundo cohen said...

Okay, one more thing before bed ...

If Peter will just join with me in a mutual public statement that says "The Past is the Paat, we will let this matter go" ... I will drop the whole thing, gone.

That is all I want.

Good night all.

Gassho, Jundo

Anonymous said...

Maybe it's cause of Brad's moving day, or maybe it's because of all the tirades on these comments, or maybe both (most likely), but in any event, this song popped into my head and I wanted to share. Because sharing is caring.

I'm So Ronery

Buddha said...

"That is all I want."

Attachment leads to suffering.

gniz said...

I hate to admit that I can't stop refreshing this page to see what happens next. I really wish I could, though.

I feel dirty. Seriously.

Anonymous said...

Let's have an argument to shake off some of that dirt then!

Argument Clinic

gniz said...

Love that Python skit...
Thanks for the linky.

Petteri Sulonen said...

:applause:

I've been wondering about all this Jundo/Brad/DSI shit. Glad to have my curiosity indulged.

(And I gotta admit I'm a wee bitty bit grateful that I have no skin in this particular game.)

anon #108 said...

As I was being pounded in the chest, I kept my arms tightly pressed at my sides...

OK. That's pretty unambiguous.
Guess I got what I was rooting around for.

Do I feel guilty or dirty for rooting? Hardly at all.

Should we all have kept our mouths shut? This story has been lying in the corner, giving off an unpleasant smell for a while. It was never a truly private matter. I can't see that anything but good can come of establishing what happened and moving on.

In this tiny corner of the tiny corner of modern Zen Buddhism it's good for these human things to be faced and clarified, I think.

Shonin said...

Hi Harry,

There are no doubt several people here who 'don't believe' or 'don't trust Jundo' (this being Brad's blog after all). It is possible however to not believe or trust someone without publically smearing their character.

You accused Jundo of sending you aggressive emails and he asked you to support that claim by posting one. The "Kiss Ass! :-)" email you posted (presumably the most agrressive you could find) doesn't seem to be aggressive at all. One problem with written communication is that it's easy to be misunderstood.

This raises the question as to whether this is the quality level of all of your basis for not believing and not trusting Jundo.

Harry said...

Justin,

No, it's not.

Regards,

Harry.

Shonin said...

What's not? It's not possible to disbelieve/distrust someone without publically smearing their character?

Of course it is. We do it all the time. Many people are doing it no doubt right now in this discussion.

Ran K. said...

Harry, (9:24 am)

Drop somebody having called you a liar or not.

I'm kind of happy this thing is going to come to an end, to be cleared up.

Either way it's a strange story to me. And not just to me.

I've read some of what Brad has written on the next post - and it doesn't make sense - it isn't about gossip.

It isn't about gossip at all.

Harry said...

Q: This raises the question as to whether this is the quality level of all of your basis for not believing and not trusting Jundo.

A: No, it's not.

Do keep up, dear boy, it's all written above.

... Isn't Eastenders on?

Regards,

Harry.

Shonin said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
anon #108 said...

Lest I be misunderstood -

Jundo wrote, As I was being pounded in the chest, I kept my arms tightly pressed at my sides...

And I responded, "OK. That's pretty unambiguous...I can't see that anything but good can come of establishing what happened and moving on."

Of course, I didn't mean that's the end of the story. But I now know, unequivocally, what Jundo is alleging - no room for ambiguity. And so I'm now curious to hear Peter's response, and/or Mr Saito's statement.

But if I never get to hear them, I'll manage. Somehow. It was none of my business in the first place.

Shonin said...

Hi Harry,

Sorry, I might have missed something, this is a long thread. However, other than that email (which seems pretty harmless) and the unsolicitated nature of Jundo's emails to you (which he says was due to misunderstanding and will now stop) what you've posted seems to be insubstantiated innuendo about his character and repeated statements about not trusting him. Statements like that are evidence only of your attitude to Jundo and on their own they are not an argument for anything.

Sorry if I missed something, perhaps you could point me in the right direction.

Harry said...

Hi justin,

What can I say, I just don't trust the guy for my own reasons (and obviously I think they are sound enough).

If you think something to the contrary then: Congratulations! You now have an opinion on the matter, and I hope you and your opinion will be happy together for however long the relationship lasts.

If somebody independent backs up his account of the alleged 'attack' event with a statement maybe I'll be inclined to trust him and his judgement more. But, what if somebody, or somebodies, reliable back up the accounts of the event which differ radically from Jundo's? In that case... oh dear, poor Jundo.

I wonder what will happen. I'm making enquiries...

Regards,

Harry.

Shonin said...

Harry,

You're entitled to your feelings about Jundo, although those feelings may or may not be justified of course. On the other hand, those private feelings, unsupported by evidence are pretty irrelevant to anything and, I think, inappropriate in a public forum like this. All you're really telling us is - big surprise - you trust Peter's word over Jundo's about an event you didn't witness.

This is not a sound basis for smearing Jundo's character.

Goodnight

Mysterion said...

nony:

LOL

go. buy the book. read it.

if you have the time, there are eleven more you need to read. it might be best if you had someone in the room to explain the many obvious things that you neither see nor understand.

Harry said...

Hi Justin,

My opinion is not 'unsupported by evidence', it is just supported by evidence that you ain't seen, and you ain't going to see (from me at least, for the time being), but, yeah, by all means, just take my input as the ranting of some internet person if you like.

...But do bear in mind that Jundo's 'I'm an attacked pacifist' line is, up to this point, just his own unsubstantiated position as well. We only have his word on it as of yet... and there are other very different versions of the events/non-events.

Now, Jundo will call me (and basically has called me) crazy for not believing just HIS version of events (he's like that), but, why should I accept what he says when there are vastly different accounts from other, respectable parties? Just because he swore an affidavit? Anyone can swear an affidavit... but why did he himself need to swear and affidavit if there were witnesses who saw what happened and could corroborate his story as he states? That would have settled the matter as to who did what right away.

His affidavit contains no third party witness corroboration and yet the guy expects me to take his part in this???

There are a few dodgy photographs at the back of the affidavit of 'witnesses': one is of the older gent that Jundo mentions and the other two have no names attached... they are just labelled 'possible witness' or something.

Jundo threatened to produce a witness before but did not. I suspect that he could not and cannot.

Regards,

Harry.

gniz said...

Since this can of worms isn't getting closed anytime soon, I'll add some more evidence to the list. I think this link to Mike Cross's page http://the-middle-way.blogspot.com/2006/03/james-cohen-internet-psychiatrist-in.html is somewhat evidence in what could be construed as a pattern of "unwanted meddling" by Jundo.

Does it make him a bad guy? No, but it does show that he clearly sees himself behaving differently than those who are the "recipients" of Jundo's interference in their business.

Basically, Mike Cross (who I hold no love in my heart for) posts an email from Jundo where the man encourages Gudo Nishijima to try and get Mike into therapy. And by the end, Mike makes it clear that Jundo has in fact never met him in person.

So it seems like a pretty odd thing for Jundo to have done based on someone he's never met. From what I understand, he's rarely interacted with Brad in person either (I may be wrong about this).

Jundo's heart may be in the right place but I think there's a lot of concrete evidence that he puts himself in situations where his views and opinions are not wanted or requested. And then he REFUSES to stop.

This could be considered a form of harassment. I think it reflects badly on Jundo and Treeleaf, whether deserved or not. The guy can't seem to leave well emough alone.

He STILL insists that everyone MUST sit down and have tea with him once a year, whether they like it or not! And just because Jundo thinks that's what a good Buddhist should do, does that really mean everyone has to do it or be bothered for a lifetime by Jundo?

anon #108 said...

Hi Harry,

Just so you don't pursue (possible) red herrings...

...why did he himself need to swear and affidavit?


I know nothing about Japanese Law, but in the UK, any complaint has to be supported by a statement from the complainant/victim, otherwise there is no case.

His affidavit contains no third party witness corroboration...

Again, in UK law, a statement should only refer to events within the knowledge of the person making it; it's not for that person to say what others might have seen.

Maybe it's the same in Japanese law...?

Jundo threatened to produce a witness before but did not.

He did say that was coz he decided not to formally pursue the thing.

Harry said...

Fair enough, 108.

Let's see what happens.

Regards,

H.

anon #108 said...

Yep, H.

And yep, gniz.

Shonin said...

Harry,

"My opinion is not 'unsupported by evidence', it is just supported by evidence that you ain't seen, and you ain't going to see "

In terms of supporting publicly made accusations, your completely private 'evidence' is worthless - no one can see it in order to see whether it supports your position or not.

"...But do bear in mind that Jundo's 'I'm an attacked pacifist' line is, up to this point, just his own unsubstantiated position as well. We only have his word on it as of yet... and there are other very different versions of the events/non-events."

Yes. We don't know what happened. However, the principle that is used in law as in science is that the onus for proof is on the person making the claim. You and Rob have implied/accused/insinuated varios things about Jundo's character and behaviour, but you have not produced any evidence. The onus is on you. I don't see what good can come of provoking and undermining someone's character anyway, but if you are going to do it then at least produce some actual evidence.

Ever heard of 'innocent until proven guilty'? We only have your word that you're not a paedophile Harry. Why should we believe you? How do we know that you don't spend the rest of your day looking at kiddy-porn? Such insubstantiated accusations from someone about you would be equally unfair/invalid. Again this wouldn't be the place for such accusations, and if someone did harm your reputation publically like that they had better be sure they could back up their case.

I don't care whether you believe Jundo or not. It's irrelevant. And I don't know what happened that day. But making accusations/innuendo about someone in a public place is a serious matter with real consequences for people.

Ever heard the expression 'put up or shut up'?

Anonymous said...

ever hear the expression 'sit down and shut up?'

Anonymous said...

We're typing silently, 7.02.

If you can hear anything your computer is ****ed up.

How about "sit up and shut down"?

It works too, Brad did it Before.

Anonymous said...

This is beyond ridiculous. 200+ comments back & forth between persons "supposedly" aiming for enlightenment - hardly good examples of buddhism in practice.

At what point will you all grow up & stop acting like schoolyard bullies?
How long will you continue to trade insults, accusations & other such nonsense? What are you trying to prove other than who has the biggest male organ?

Jundo, they don't want to meet you - stop telling them they have to. All you're doing is winding people up for no good reason. As you continue to tell everyone else - drop it & just sit.
That you have an open invitation for them to come sit with you is admirable but forcing yourself down their throats is not helping you or anyone else. It's a failed cause until they choose to reciprocate & if they never do then so be it.
Seriously, Jundo - just stop.

As for the rest of you bickering back & forth - you're making yourselves look stupid & you're bringing buddhism (& your sangha/teachers) into disrepute with all this crap.

All I see is damage everywhere I look on these comments - well done guys - it looks like armageddon with a "buddhist" twist.

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