Tuesday, September 22, 2009

BYE BYE TOKIO!

My World Domination Tour 2009 is officially done (though it looks like I'll have some Canadian dates to announce in November). The retreat at Tokei-in temple in Shizuoka, Japan ended yesterday. It was real and it was fun and it was real fun. We had 14 people at the beginning and ended with 16. This is a reverse of the usual order of things, in which someone always runs away from the retreat before it's done. We actually gained in numbers this time! How about that?

About my only complaint was that it was yet again another sausage fest. The ratio would have been a bit better but for the fact that two of the women who signed up had to cancel out before the retreat began due to personal matters. Even so, the ratio would have been still way too man heavy.

It's not always like this. The retreat I led at Southern Dharma Retreat Center earlier this year had more women than men, and the one I led near Munich was even-steven with five of each. But the general trend tends to be more male dominated. I've mentioned this before and I still don't have a good reason for it. Such is life, I suppose.

This trip has been a great opportunity to meet a lot of the other Dogen Sangha people. I spent a couple nights with Mike Leutchford, met Jeremy Pearson, had lunch with Richard Morrisey, got shown around London by Rachelle Allen, sat sesshins with Michele Proulx, Gabrielle Linnebach and Gerhard Wolfram, saw all of Finland with Markus Laitenen, made some really nice connections with Jurgen Seggelke, Gustav Ericsson, Nicole de Merkline and Kevin Bortolin, and even had some very friendly contact with Mike Cross. I'm starting to think this Dogen Sangha thing just might work after all.

In mere hours I'll be winging my way back to the USA where I'll stay for at least a couple of days (sorry, I couldn't resist). Well until I go to Canada anyway.

And, HEY MEXICO, my dad's moving to your country (he says) and wants me to come visit in December. So if anyone down South of the Border wants me to come speak there, shoot me an email (spoozilla@gmail.com). But don't actually shoot me, OK?

All right. I gotta go. I promise a real Zen article some time after I get back.

Rock on, world!

195 comments:

number one said...

This trip has been a great opportunity to meet a lot of the other Dogen Sangha people. I spent a couple nights with Mike Leutchford, met Jeremy Pearson, had lunch with Richard Morrisey, got shown around London by Rachelle Allen, sat sesshins with Michele Proulx, Gabrielle Linnebach and Gerhard Wolfram, saw all of Finland with Markus Laitenen, made some really nice connections with Jurgen Seggelke, Gustav Ericsson, Nicole de Merkline and Kevin Bortolin, and even had some very friendly contact with Mike Cross.

So many names. Yet no Jundo Cohen anywhere among them. So petty.

Never too late? said...

So many names. Yet no Jundo Cohen anywhere among them. So petty.

Maybe it is still not too late?

Anonymous said...

Don't you know Brad yet? He's a petty guy.

Not a problem, unless for a Buddhist teacher.

Anonymous said...

snippy snippy snipe snipe

oh, and do tell, and you don't say

it's later than you think!

do not waste a precious moment

look to your own invitations, the ones you RSVP and the ones you don't

no time to ponder others'

Anonymous said...

Number one, you are really number two.

Anonymous said...

We are the world
We are the children
We are the ones who make a brighter day
So let's start giving
There's a choice we're making
We're saving our own lives
It's true we'll make a better day
Just you and me..

Everyone sing!

I'm liking Brad more and more..

Anonymous said...

Three or four other interesting names left off the list too, the "out" people. Petty petty.

mtto said...

Hi,

Brad isn't a petty guy.

Brad does the Shizuoka retreat every year and has for a long time. If Jundo or anyone else in Japan really wanted to see Brad, they could sign up for the retreat. For all I know, he did; Brad did write that they gained two people. But I doubt that.

All the people listed in this post are "Dogen Sangha people". Jundo isn't. He left to form his own independent group. Jundo didn't want to be a member of Dogen Sangha with Brad as the official head or whatever. Even if Brad did speak to Jundo in Japan on this trip, his name wouldn't belong on this list.

Are you anonimi really suggesting that on a relatively short trip to Japan, Brad should hang out with some guy who isn't a close friend instead of his actually friends (and family) from the time he lived in Japan? Really? That's a rhetorical question.

Anonymous said...

excellent points mtto. the anonimi you mention are like one person/dork. He just seems like a crowd.

Anonymous said...

Brad, can't let the grudge go? How long will you carry it around?

Why not try some Buddhism or something and let it go already.

mtto said...

What grudge? Grudge makes it seem like they were buddies from back in the day and had a falling out. That is not the case.

Anonymous said...

mtto, the guy is a troll. He is clueless. He is only trying to suck you into his mess.. don't engage him.

Anonymous said...

let's all stop barking up this wrong tree and leaf things alone now

ok? ok!

)))anonymouse((( said...

Rock On, Brad!

Harry said...

"...and even had some very friendly contact with Mike Cross. I'm starting to think this Dogen Sangha thing just might work after all."

Great!

People seem so much nicer and real in the world which leaps free of just internet blogs and email (in my Dogen Sangha experience, that is).

Regards,

Harry.

Hnz said...

Big MInd ? Hello Brad,I noticed that you are showing bigmind.org ads on the right side of your blog. That must be a coincidence or am I looking into a mirror ?

Cheers,
Hnz

Anonymous said...

it is the nature of internet

Big Mind (tm) is mentioned so many times here that it is 'read' as a site which would be interested in adverts for it.

you can try this at home
when you search for something, say car insurance or
an electric shaver

ads about these things will just happen to 'find' you
I always thought this was what was meant by 'cookies'
('cause it's crumby')

Anonymous said...

Aah...... that explains the porn adds...

Hatchet said...

"Sausage fest." Heh. Hey, Brad. You're supposed to be staring at the floor doing zazen. What are you staring at? Just kidding, you're alright. Plus I know you're never going to read this.

Looking forward to the next book. Peace.

Anonymous said...

anonimi you mention are like one person/dork. He just seems like a crowd.


As one of the aforementioned anonymi, I can assure you that we are more than one person. Unless I have serious memory lapses. Of course I'm sure it makes some of you feel better to believe that only one or two dorks ever say anthing critical of your hero.

Dork: Anyone that criticizes Brad or any of his teachings.

Anonymous said...

We are Legion!!!

Anonymous said...

"As one of the aforementioned anonymi, I can assure you that we are more than one person."

Well of course Silly.. Anonymi take on many forms and are of various temperaments. But are you claiming that the guy posting at about 7:22 to 8:30 is anything more than a troll/dork?

number two said...

Of course we are trolls and dorks since we sometimes have negative things to say about Brad. I realize this is part of Brad's teaching...to label those who disagree with him as trolls, dorks, asswipes, buttbuddies, scumbags, dickheads, etc. His students have learned his dharma well. Lots of in-fighting, hateful speech, comparison and pettiness. I'm just glad I found zen before I discovered this blog. Otherwise I may have concluded it was an effect of regular zazen and that all teachers were like Brad.

Un-any-mouse said...

I (one of the anonymi) said:

...we sometimes have negative things to say ...

And then I said:

... hateful speech, comparison and pettiness ...

Huh? So, wait... Umm... wait...

So, it's OK for us to make negative comments (aka hateful speech, comparison and pettiness) but Warner's a dick for it?

Cool!!! Oh, uh, um, er, ...

How's that work again?

earDRUM said...

Is Zen is more attractive to men than it is to women?
I suspect that this is indeed the case. (The ratio of male to female commenters on this blog tend to support this.)
If this is indeed the case, then why do you think it is true?
Maybe Zen looks cold and unemotional to most people? Would that sort of thing might appeal to typical males more than typical females?
Do women tend to be more attracted to emotional fantasies... angels, magic crystals, and such? Do we intentionally program little girls to be this way?
Do we tend to program little boys to be attracted to darker fantasies... devils, heroic violent soldiers, and such? Is that why heavy metal is more attractive to teenage boys?

Any ideas?

Anonymous said...

"Of course we are trolls and dorks "

Not all.. It's mostly you.

Anonymous said...

"I'm just glad I found zen before I discovered this blog."

Me too.. You could have been a real jerk..

Anonymous said...

I think you mean I could have been a "bigger jerk."

Anonymous said...

Give the man some props. Think of what it would take to put yourself out there to lead retreats, write books and give talks. Come on. It *is* helping to make people aware of practice - to give them some new perspectives on the life experience to consider.

clap.... clap..... clap.....

Yet Another Anon said...

Yep. He deserves credit where credit is due. Wait, doesn't Genpo roshi write books, give talks and lead retreats too? Does Brad give him props for leading people to practice or just grief for Bigmind b.s.?

alan said...

Anon @ 12:15 pater mater

Props?

Yes, true enough. Here are my compliments to the Bradster.

Has kept me sitting for over two years straight with his comment that sitting was boring. That has been my experience and without that statement, I would have given up long ago.

One of his blog entries let me realize that all the thoughts passing endlessly through my head during zazen were not a distraction from sitting, they are my sitting.

Have listened to him speak many times and never heard him say anything that made me wince. ( the writing is another story).

Corbie said...

@EarDrum -- and Brad, if you're reading:
First, women are probably less likely to want to put themselves out there for the usual stupid hatefest that one usually finds in blogs' comment sections (particularly blogs that allow anonymous posting, which encourages that sort of thing, IMO).

Second, I recently discovered Hardcore Zen and Brad's other books, and find them a fairly refreshing alternative to some of the more, shall we say, ethereal takes on Zen. But I'm still catching up on the whole Chodo / Jundo / Brad blowup in this blog's archives, and, well, frankly -- as the possessor of female anatomy, reading the slurs that Mike uses against Jundo Cohen (I think "fishy" was included), I'd be really reluctant to spend any time in Mike's company. He's showing his real feelings about women there, and they're not nice.

Yes, I would like to see more women teaching Zen. Maybe there'd be less of this kind of testosterone-fueled jostling. (There'd be other kinds of fighting, since, yes, girls do usually fight differently than boys, but it might prompt better behavior overall. Or not. {shrugs})

Anonymous said...

Yeah, baby, yeah!
More women in Zen...

CATFIGHT!!!

Groovy.

Anonymous said...

respectful discourse

Anonymous said...

if any phenomena is taken as solid and permanent, there is no opening to the unconditioned. there are 17 trillion mind movements in an instant.

Anonymous said...

Dude, Everyone knows there is only 16 trillion mind movements in an instant.

Cory. said...

We're looking forward to your visit here in Victoria Brad...see you in November.

Stephanie said...

Now now. Some of us women like the crazy fightin' and macho bullshit. It's like a secondary testosterone high or something.

I think the reason that there may be more men than women at the average Zen retreat is that the 'macho' qualities of formal Zen practice--"sit through the pain, sit as if your head were on fire, sit for hours without moving, sit, sit, sit"--appeals to a generally more male sensibility. That said, each of us has male and female tendencies psychologically and some women (like me) are also drawn to all that macho tough-ass shit.

Brad also seems to appeal to the 'geek' contingent, which is certainly not a male-only province of the social realm, but it is certainly one dominated by men. It is extremely nerdy to sit around wanting to argue the finer points of Zen--really very little difference in my view from arguing the finer points of Star Wars or Star Trek--and it's like a bug light for male geeks, I find. Some of us women get in on that action too, unfortunately ;)

Anonymous said...

we women folk are too busy living the dharma in our daily lives

some of us do take the time to not only be unsung, but anonymous

more men than women: the legacy of the Dharma Bums in the late 50's
and popularization of shows such as Kung Fu (the lone mendicant monk)

there are quite a number of extraordinary women in this practice many have written books

seek and ye shall find

but something tells me those asking aren't interested in women as practitioners but women as eye candy

am I right?

let your eyes rest on the wall--plenty of eye candy when you leave off sitting

mtto said...

Stephanie said... "sit through the pain

For the record, that's not what we do at Hill Street and that is not what Brad teaches.

If you have pain in your sitting, particularly if it is in your knee, you should move. Also, don't let your feet fall asleep; that's a hard one for me.

mtto said...

My not so anonymous friend said: but something tells me those asking aren't interested in women as practitioners but women as eye candy

am I right?


No, I think you are wrong.

Smoggyrob said...

Hi everyone:

Whenever we do a one day retreat however many women are there wind up with the kitchen samu. Maybe we should precept them from the kitchen. I'm a junkie and require outdoor samu, but all the other guys should nut up or shut up.

Rob

Anonymous said...

Why do people get so offended at being eye candy? I appreciate good looking men, and it doesn't demean them in any way. Is it so wrong to be thought of as sexually attractive or to find someone sexually attractive? Why would that make you any less of a zazen practitioner?

Anonymous said...

anon @ 6:24 PM

dude, you've got to up your game. you don't even know what your missing ;)

Smoggyrob said...

Hi everyone:

Right on, 845. We come to this practice exactly as we are. Nothing makes us less of a zazen practitioner (except a lack of practicing zazen). I love being eye candy.

Rob

Anonymous said...

nothing offensive meant by use of the term eye candy

thought it was a quick way to say the lads want for something/someone attractive to look at

and I do think cute girls increase the number of guys who attend and cute guys would increase the number of cute girls

maybe if there were more cute guys sitting there would be more cute girls who would be drawn to sitting....

just saying...

Rich said...

"Is it so wrong to be thought of as sexually attractive or to find someone sexually attractive? Why would that make you any less of a zazen practitioner?"

As long as we have this body sexual impulses / attraction just keep on arising. Sometimes the stimulus is more of a scent than an eye candy thing. But it always comes down to what action if any you are going to take. so I would say that accepting and dealing with your sexuality makes you a better zen practitioner. It seems to have helped Brad -)

Corbie said...

Geek girls rule :)

Nothing wrong with seeing / being eye candy, or sex! It's all good -- in the right context.

I mentioned the slurs that caught my attention (they're from 2006 -- if Mike Cross apologized for them since then, well, I haven't caught up on the blog archives yet) to a couple of male friends & we all agreed that in a completely different context, the words used would be just fine. It's just when one man uses them to put another man down, they show a lot about his own attitude toward women. Yes, we need to be honest about our inner monsters, but... yeesh. There's a big difference between confronting those monsters and giving them free rein.

Re macho and zazen -- probably more women are in yoga studios than zendos, so pain isn't necessarily the issue. Pain I can handle. It's the boredom, and the screaming internal dialogue, that made me quit yoga and hindered my past efforts at meditation.

Knowing that meditation is _supposed_ to be boring -- well, that helps. A lot.

Anonymous said...

The next time you find yourself
whining about the pain in your
knees, just think that compared
to this female Buddhist, you're
a wimp:

Melody Gardot

PhillySteveInLA said...

As far as sitting with the pain goes, I take kind of a middle approach...
I mean, you don't want to hurt yourself, but there is a heightened awareness of the little aches and pains that are almost always there. And that you should sit through.
To illustrate:
I once read a description by Ram Dass about he was sitting and a mosquito landed on him and so he just let it do it's thing and felt every moment of it.
It sounded cool. So when, as I was sitting by a lake one day, a mosquito landed me I decided to try it. It was really quite interesting until it jammed it's nose into me and I felt like I had been stabbed in the hand with a dagger.

So you see, a small pain can seem a lot bigger.
It's best to use your judgement. If you know you have problems where the pain exists, or if it is distracting you too much- then go ahead. Shift. In our school you can even stand up. But explore that pain first. Sit with it a little and see what kind of pain it is.
Then stand up;)

Jinzang said...

Who's going to be the first to share war stories from the retreat? 'Fess up. Does Brad start wiggling around twenty minutes into the sit, or scratch himself absent mindedly? Some folks from the Saturday morning sit should give us the real poo,

Zen always seems male heavy to me. You lonely guys looking for a dharma date should check out your local Tibetan center where the gender ratio runs to more women than men. Possibly the women are attracted by the superior aesthetics of the Tibetan buddha bling.

Zayin said...

I'm a woman and I like zen.
How long does a zen retreat go for? I have a full time job with very few holidays. Some women have kids and no-one to mind them. I think these would be impediments to going on a week long zen retreat.
Looking forward to the next article!!

ihtssm said...

http://gogogadgetzen.wordpress.com/

jundo cohen said...

I am going to post this here. I do not care if people believe it politics or grandstanding or whatever ... it is simply a statement about something that is not right. It is not right for Buddhists, especially those between whom there has been friction in the past, to refuse to meet, sit Zazen together and attempt peaceful discussion looking to remove the tensions.

I did ask Brad to meet during his stay, my Teacher Nishijima Roshi offered to host the meeting in his home, Brad initially agreed ... then did not come. What is more, the ending of this story (see the last mail below) is ...

Buddhists should always be willing to meet. Whatever people feel, it is just a viewpoint, thoughts.

I do not know how long these mails will be allowed here (I will post them below), but here is the story ...

Gassho, Jundo

jundo cohen said...

On Wednesday, September 23, 2009, at 04:38AM, "gudo wafu" wrote:
>> Dear Ven. James Cohen,
>>
>> Thank you very much for your kindness to visit me today.
>>
>> I have a contact with Ven. Brad Warner, and even though he is very
>> busy
>> tomorrow,
>> he has promised me to meet you.
>>
>> He will come to my apartment at 9:30, and then we will go to a coffee
>> shop near the
>> station.
>>
>> Therefore would you mind to wait for us in front of the Mejiro Station
>> like today a little
>> later than 9:30?
>>
>> We would like to have a short greetings, because Ven. Brad Warner
>> might
>> be very busy
>> also tomorrow.
>>
>> With best wishes Gudo Wafu Nishijima
>>
>>
>>


On 2009/09/23, at 20:58, Jundo Cohen wrote:

> I will see you then. Thank you for arranging the meeting, Roshi. J

On 2009/09/23, at 23:18, Brad Warner wrote:

> Dear Nishijima Sensei,
>
> This is a very bad plan.
>
> Please consider this e-mail as my official resignation as President of
> Dogen Sangha. I no longer consider myself to be a member of Dogen
> Sangha. I will make my official statement when I return to the USA.
>
> Brad


Subject: Re: Tomorrow Meeting
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 02:18:21
From: gudo wafu
To: Brad Warner
CC: Jundo Cohen


Dear Ven. Brad Warner,

Thank you very much for your information that we will stop our meeting.

Because thinking about the meaning of the meeting, we can not find any
kind meaning to meet the three persons together.

Therefore I like also to stop the meeting completely, and I thank you
for your clever decision.

I feel very sorry to bother you so much, and I will wait for your
proclamation sincerely.

With best wishes Gudo Wafu Nishijima

Anonymous said...

Gosh jundo, Your plan for revenge is diabolical..

Anonymous said...

Please consider this e-mail as my official resignation as President of
> Dogen Sangha. I no longer consider myself to be a member of Dogen
> Sangha.

Does that mean that Brad can no longer meet and talk to himself?

Anonymous said...

Jundo, How did you obtain Brad's supposed e-mail to Gudo?

Anonymous said...

I have got to say that the resignation e-mail does not sound like it is from someone who is busy meeting with various members of DSI across Europe. It doesn't ring true to me.

Dork n Troll said...

ROFLMAO!
So now Brad has expelled himself from Dogen Sangha? This soap opera just gets more and more funny. Thanks for the update Jundo.

Anonymous said...

Dork n Troll: Crawl back under your rock..

jundo cohen said...

Anonymous said...

Jundo, How did you obtain Brad's supposed e-mail to Gudo?


Let me just answer this before people start accusing me of having made it up. Buddha knows, if I wanted to do so, I could have made up something that sounds more plausible. In fact, let him change his mind and be the President again ... Why not? He should be if he wants!

Nishijima Roshi cc'd me. Here is the message as originally received (I have removed peoples' email addresses though)

---



-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: Tomorrow Meeting
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 02:18:21 +0900
From: gudo wafu
To: Brad Warner
CC: Jundo Cohen
References: 6221506a02fb3ef76c71b9c5fcf5ffba@XXX.com 102074370792252556452828087734455834074-Webmail@vvv.com


Dear Ven. Brad Warner,

Thank you very much for your information that we will stop our meeting.

Because thinking about the meaning of the meeting, we can not find any
kind meaning to meet the three persons together.

Therefore I like also to stop the meeting completely, and I thank you
for your clever decision.

I feel very sorry to bother you so much, and I will wait for your
proclamation sincerely.

With best wishes Gudo Wafu Nishijima



On 2009/09/23, at 23:18, Brad Warner wrote:

> Dear Nishijima Sensei,
>
> This is a very bad plan.
>
> Please consider this e-mail as my official resignation as President of
> Dogen Sangha. I no longer consider myself to be a member of Dogen
> Sangha. I will make my official statement when I return to the USA.
>
> Brad
>
> On Wednesday, September 23, 2009, at 04:38AM, "gudo wafu"
> wrote:
>> Dear Ven. James Cohen,
>>
>> Thank you very much for your kindness to visit me today.
>>
>> I have a contact with Ven. Brad Warner, and even though he is very
>> busy
>> tomorrow,
>> he has promised me to meet you.
>>
>> He will come to my apartment at 9:30, and then we will go to a coffee
>> shop near the
>> station.
>>
>> Therefore would you mind to wait for us in front of the Mejiro Station
>> like today a little
>> later than 9:30?
>>
>> We would like to have a short greetings, because Ven. Brad Warner
>> might
>> be very busy
>> also tomorrow.
>>
>> With best wishes Gudo Wafu Nishijima
>>
>>
>>
>

Anonymous said...

"Nishijima Roshi cc'd me. Here is the message as originally received (I have removed peoples' email addresses though)"

Jundo: It should be very easy to corroborate the e-mail as having come from Brad. All that needs happen is for another person that was cc'd the message to come forward.

jundo cohen said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
jundo cohen said...

I am the only cc. I have it on my laptop, and it came through Google g-mail. I saw Nishijima Roshi the day before and at the scheduled meeting time itself, and he confirmed it, so I am sure it was not a trick of some kind.

Anyway, like I said. I could make a better story, and Brad should remain as the rightful president of DSI if he wants.

If anything, the whole things shows how high emotions can run about having a cup of tea and peaceful talking. I will not even say another thing that happened this week.


Anyway, I will leave it there. It is still not too late to fix anything.

Gassho, Jundo

Anonymous said...

Jundo
just what is rush to post with such haste
why not just wait for what ever announcement is to be made?
you could always fill in the backstory later in a "Jundo comes cleaner*, the Jundo Story Contiinues" (please see Treeleaf topics for the original)

All you can do is put your request out there--which you did--and then wait. He comes to Japan yearly--so if not this time, another time...
You let it go, because to apply pressure says more about what you want to get from the meeting than anything else.


So while Brad is on a plane you take the opportunity to take over his blog and 'break the news' which you seem only too happy to do, rather than let us hear from Brad himself whatever he wants to announce.

You are a creepy guy--under the guise of 'making peace'--indeed!

You who make such a big deal about how your cyber sangha is every bit as good, as real, as effective as a 'face to face' sangha, and yet you do not accept less than a face to face meeting with Brad...only face to face is 'real,' and that's how 'real buddhists' should conduct themselves.

you got some squaring up to do, 'cause right now all the angles are pointing at you

Anonymous said...

*now thanks to extra whitening 'jundo' power, whites are even spotlessly whiter

Anonymous said...

Jundo
just what is rush to post with such haste
why not just wait for what ever announcement is to be made?
you could always fill in the backstory later in a "Jundo comes cleaner*, the Jundo Story Contiinues"


Jundo is always the bad guy to some.

Anonymous said...

"I'm starting to think this Dogen Sangha thing just might work after all."--Brad

"Please consider this e-mail as my official resignation as President of Dogen Sangha. I no longer consider myself to be a member of Dogen Sangha."--Brad

dorkapotimous said...

"I will not even say another thing that happened this week."

Ah come on Jundo! Such a tease. At least we can use our imagination.

This week Brad had group sex with seven japanese hookers.
This week Brad began huffing inhalants.
This week Brad slugged a dwarf.
This week Brad announced that he and he alone practiced true zen.
.......

Anonymous said...

Wow, Jundo, you're just nasty. Really. I can't think of a single positive thing you could be trying to do in this situation. It's just malicious.

You know, it's funny, I clicked on your blog profile and saw that you follow Mike Port's blog Wild Fox Zen. Birds of a feather: Mike Port did some incredibly hurtful things to his family and the Clouds in Water sangha as a whole. The community went through a very dark time after that, and many legitimate teachers felt alienated and wanted to leave/did leave for a time, because of the havoc he caused. His negative behavior continues to this day. I see this situation as very similar.

Jundo: are you really looking beyond yourself with any of your actions here? What is your intention in posting that? In asking for tea? In saying "you will not even say another thing that happened this week"? If it weren't too late to fix anything, why would you be purposely creating a public drama? I smell a smell here, and it smells a hell of a lot like bullshit.

Smoggyrob said...

Hi everyone:

Jundo wrote, "It is not right for Buddhists, especially those between whom there has been friction in the past, to refuse to meet, sit Zazen together and attempt peaceful discussion looking to remove the tensions."

Jundo, the past doesn't exist, there's friction right now. I doubt Brad would ever want to discuss anything with you. Here's how you remove the tension: fuck off, and stay fucked off. You are the tension. If that email's legit, you're a putz. And do you think posting emails is the smart move for you?

Man, with all the compassion I can muster, there's only suffering for you on this road. Find your own way.

Rob

Anonymous said...

Jundo Cohen is power mad.
He is a former member of the Kwan Um School of Zen and repeatedly pressured Dae Soen Sa Nim(Zen Master Seung Sahn)to give him transmission.
He was summarily denied every time.
He decided to leave/was pressured to leave after it became one time too many.

He is willing to manipulate and cajole to achieve his ends. when they are not met, he is quick to move the blame somewhere else.

Do not trust this pretender.

PhillySteveInLA said...

The tiger shows his stripes.
Not even a milky eyed lion, not even a blind dog.

jundo cohen said...

Jundo Cohen is power mad.
He is a former member of the Kwan Um School of Zen and repeatedly pressured Dae Soen Sa Nim(Zen Master Seung Sahn)to give him transmission.


Of all the things being written here, this is one of the weirdest. I have never been a member of the Korean Kwan Um School (I lived in Japan for 20 years). Where is this coming from? I have to ask.

Anonymous said...

Shobogenzo:

Soko shin ze butsu (6),
Shin fukatoku (18),
Tashintsu (80).

Anonymous said...

Why wouldn't Brad just have met with Jimbo and his teacher and end all this? That would seem to be the obvious solution. Am I missing something? Brad's behavior seems weird.

jundo cohen said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
jundo cohen said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
jundo cohen said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
jundo cohen said...

For purposes of disclosure, my Teacher Nishijima Roshi (although a man of 1000 memories sometimes) just posted this to all members of Dogen Sangha.

Fine, whatever the story on this bizarre email. Brad should remain in his rightful role of president of DSI. If Nishijima Roshi is the one who cancelled the meeting, it is a bit different from what he led me to believe at the time. Maybe Nishijima Roshi ... I don't know. I am sure he has his reasons for what he did then or for what he is saying now. However, fine. Whatever.

__________

Dear Ven. James Cohen, and All members in Dogen Sangha international and Dogen Sangha Groups,

Thank you very much for your sincere report, which has been sent to many friend in Dogen Sangha International.

And I think that such a kind of process has occurred because of so short time and because of a little complicated
situations, and so I think that there might be no one, who can accept its responsibility.

The process has been like follows.

1. On 23, Septerber, Ven. James Cohen requested me to have a meeting with Ven, James Cohen, Ven. Brad Warner,
and me, Gudo Nishijima.

2. The place of meeting has been decided at my small apartment on 24, in the afternoon.

3. But from the night on 21 to the morning on 22, I have thought miscellaneous problems, and at last I arrived at that the meaning
of the meeting is only the ceremonial meaning, which does not have any kinds of realistic meaning, and so I have arrived at my
conclusion that it might be much more better, to abbreviate the meeting because of such kind of ceremonial meeting it will not have
any kind of good result.

4. Therefore when it was at about 2 or 3 o'clock on the 22, in the morning, I have got up from the bed, and sent the two e-mails
to Ven. James Cohen and Ven. Brad Warner to tell that I would like to stop the meeting.

5. In the morning of 22, I could tell the stopping meeting to Ven. Brad Warner, but at that time I did not know Ven. James Cohen's
telephone number, and so I have relied upon only e-mail.

6. I could call Ven. Brad Warner in the morning, and so I could tell him about the stopping meeting.

7. I have expected that Ven. James Cohen has read my e-mail, but he visited me on the promised time in the morning, and so
we have had our pleasant talks about for 2 hours, and we have promised that we will be diligent to promote Buddhism through
the world.

8. I will continue my Buddhist efforts until my death, and so I would like to ask to all members of Dogen Sangha International, and
many Dogen Sanghas in the world to cooperate together forever.

With best wishes Gudo Wafu Nishijima

jundo cohen said...

I wrote this back to Nishijima Roshi ...

____________________

Hi Roshi,

That is fine. But then why did you send me the email that said?

> On 2009/09/23, at 23:18, Brad Warner wrote:
>
> > Dear Nishijima Sensei,
> >
> > This is a very bad plan.
> >
> > Please consider this e-mail as my official resignation as President of
> > Dogen Sangha. I no longer consider myself to be a member of Dogen
> > Sangha. I will make my official statement when I return to the USA.
> >
> > Brad


I do not care, and I think Brad is a great President of Dogen Sangha International. He should remain as such. But you told me that he canceled the meeting.

Gassho, Jundo

Anonymous said...

Again with an "I don't care.." Brad says the same thing. For guys that claim to not to care, you two really seem to obsess about even the stupidest details.

jundo cohen said...

Latest mail (I feel I have to disclose these). Personally, I think my teacher may be falling on his sword, taking responsibility as the loyal samurai here. But, truly, what is done is done.

__________________________

Hello Again Roshi,

It does not really matter at this point who decided to stop the meeting. But if it was you, and not Brad, why did you send me an email that says the following. Please explain:

> Subject: Re: Tomorrow Meeting
> Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 02:18:21
> From: gudo wafu
> To: Brad Warner
> CC: Jundo Cohen
>
>
> Dear Ven. Brad Warner,
>
> Thank you very much for your information that we will stop our meeting.
>
> Because thinking about the meaning of the meeting, we can not find any
> kind meaning to meet the three persons together.
>
> Therefore I like also to stop the meeting completely, and I thank you
> for your clever decision.
>
> I feel very sorry to bother you so much, and I will wait for your
> proclamation sincerely.
>
> With best wishes Gudo Wafu Nishijima


Gassho, Jundo

---

Dear Ven. James Kohen,

Thank you very much for you email.

But I do not know what you are worrying about. Please tell me the meaning of your question.

I would like sincerely think about your question.

With best wishes Gudo Wafu Nishijima

Harry said...

Name for this latest unconvincing mini series (where DO they get these actors!?): "L.A. Dharma".

What a crock of funny shit! :-))

Regards,

Harry.

jundo cohen said...

Hi Harry,

Well, we have had weirder days around Dogen Sangha over the last many years. Not too many though, and this is right up there.

Congratulations on your new sitting group in Ireland.

Gassho, J

Anonymous said...

Of all that has come out about the proposed meeting, the threatening resignation letter attributed to Brad seems the strangest. Very abrupt and final. He could have made any excuse he wanted to back out without resigning..

Anonymous said...

Wow,

Brad's been channeling some Machiavelli lately.

Harry said...

What the hell's sitting gotta do with it?... WE WANT BLOOD!

Go gettim, Hotshot. 'Ding, Ding' (that's the bell for round 28, your go at the sandbox jury, not kinhin).

Regards,

Harry.

Rick said...

Wow... miss a couple of days, and you miss a lot here, it seems.

I can hear the theme music to that sappy soap opera (like sands through the hour glass, so are the days of our lives) playing in the background again as I read through these comments, many of which are quite pejorative. But hey, whatever...

This is all very reminiscent of my last sangha - folks vying to be in charge, others pushing and pushing the teacher for 'inka', brown-nosing, a lot of intrigue/bad feelings with another Zen group, and a head teacher who seems to be a little off her rocker.

I prefer a firm affiliation with no Zen affiliations now after all the ego bolstering and posturing of the past.

But I haven't been sleeping well the past few nights, so I might just be more than a little nuts myself by now.

DINGO: Oh, wicked, bad, naughty, evil Zoot! Oh, she is a naughty person, and she must pay the penalty -- and here in Castle Anthrax, we have but one punishment for setting alight the grail-shaped beacon. You must tie her down on a bed and spank her!

GIRLS: A spanking! A spanking!

DINGO: You must spank her well. And after you have spanked her, you may deal with her as you like. And then, spank me.

VARIOUS GIRLS: And spank me.
And me.
And me.

DINGO: Yes, yes, you must give us all a good spanking!

GIRLS: A spanking! A spanking!

DINGO: And after the spanking, the oral sex.

GIRLS: Oral sex! Oral sex!

GALAHAD: Well, I could stay a BIT longer.

Anonymous said...

You know Jundo, this isn't really going to help you reconcile yourself with the boys at DSI, if that was what you really wanted. You might have really fucked things up good this time.

Anonymous said...

Rick said: "as I read through these comments, many of which are quite pejorative."

Haha.. Yeah, just a few.. Dork/troll has had a boner since Jundo's first post.

Anonymous said...

You know Jundo, this isn't really going to help you reconcile yourself with the boys at DSI, if that was what you really wanted. You might have really fucked things up good this time.

Not so clear who is the biggest fucker upper

Anonymous said...

Sorry to all true believers but this whole sorry mess is so deliciously ironic.

gniz said...

Now lets get back to talking about how amazing Zen practice is for showing us how to deal with life's many problems...

Christ, these guys havent learned a FUCKING thing.

-g

Rick said...

One of the Anonymati said...

"Haha.. Yeah, just a few..."

Not just the Dork Troll... (sounds like a LOTR reference - yeah... I'm a geek. So?)

Rob flung the "F" bomb at Jundo, accused him of being the problem without recognizing his own part in it by reacting as he did. Funny how people miss that...

It may be justified, I don't know.

But I asked myself, "Self, do you think Rob ever met Jundo? Or is this just a case of 'protect the teacher at all costs?'"

(No, I didn't get an answer. Which is good... that means the voices have stopped. [tic] I'm feeling much better, now.)

I mean, I understand that from a egoistic POV. We put a lot of ourselves into who our teacher is, and what they're saying.

We're drawn to a certain kind of teacher, what they say, how they say it. But it's less about the teacher's teaching, and more about the psychology of the one taught.

When someone attacks our teacher, whoa... stand back... it's like part of ourselves has been attacked.

Been there, once or twice ... ran to the aid of my teacher, her knight in shining armor and defender of The Faith. She had but to forward me a selection of emails from person X, Y, and Z who had attacked her (ever only verbally), or so I thought. Got my ire up.

Until I saw it for what it was.

It's funny now, in retrospect, just how deeply important I thought all of it was. Then your world collapses, and you can see through it all. Or not... and you keep playing the games.

We're all much better off without any of these "Zen organizations". Just my opinion, of course.

Like herding feral cats...

gniz said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Rick said...

If you think any of this matters (even what I have to say) check out this picture...

(I hope this works)

Anonymous said...

Talk, talk, talk, haven't you heard.
There's more power in fewer words.. - some guy singing on the radio

Anonymous said...

100 - This is what's really important.

Anonymous said...

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/archivepix.html
A reminder for every day, no less. Astronomy and physics are fucking cool.

Anonymous said...

Hmm, this melodrama is vaguely reminiscent
of Hui-neng, after receiving Hongren's robe
and bowl, being chased by Ch'en Hui-ming.

(Perhaps Jundo should become Brad's student
and start showing up at Hill Street ;)

jundo cohen said...

If you think any of this matters (even what I have to say) check out this picture...

(I hope this works)


This is the wisest comment yet. None of this matters.

Anonymous said...

Hmm, this melodrama is vaguely reminiscent
of Hui-neng, after receiving Hongren's robe
and bowl, being chased by Ch'en Hui-ming.


More reminiscent of the Three Stooges

Anonymous said...

This whole saga is why I have been unable to find a Zen group that I find worthy of my commitment. People are people, but like someone suggested, I do wonder what Brad, Jundo, and Gudo have truly learned from all their damn sitting. Has it made them more balanced and compassionate? I don't know. Maybe. But from this whole soap opera, I see no difference from these guys and those good people I personally know who have never sat a second of their lives in zazen. Makes me wonder.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...
"Astronomy and physics are fucking cool."

Indeed."

Anonymous said...

not a word of this has been posted on Treeleaf
Jundo's very own personal sand box

I hope Jundo gets the psychoanalytical help required to get it--these dynamics at play--and not have to act this stuff out anymore

These psychological themes...well, they are as old as human existence

As far as being appointed the head of an organization goes, or deciding that one no longer wishes to be the head of an organization goes,
well, ultimately there just is no such thing:
there is no one to do the appointing and there is no one to do the accepting or the declining

all these no ones getting on and off the train, drinking their miso soup with seaweed
aaaahhh
vast ocean's green patches now in this little bowl between my hands
aaahhh

what dogen sangha international?

steam embraces my face ,
warmth enters my hands, my mouth, my esophagus, my stomach

I have eaten

now is time to wash my bowl

Anonymous said...

If none of this matters, Jundo Cohen Roshi, then why have you dedicated so much time to it?

Anonymous said...

Anonymous Anonymous said...
"Makes me wonder."

I wish I had never heard of zen.
If the time and energy I've spent
sitting had been spent otherwise,
I could be a mega-multi-millionaire
by now. Instead, I'm a confused pauper
who never gets laid. What a waste of a life.

Aw crap, it's time to sit AGAIN?
Oh well, back to the zafu, see ya...

Anonymous said...

"This whole saga is why I have been unable to find a Zen group that I find worthy of my commitment. "

Haha.. Did you get that quote from Groucho marx?

Rick said...

Supposedly, there's "no one" doing the appointing, accepting or declining...

And yet, there is an I which has have eaten, has hands, a face, an esophagus?

Someone pass me the Zen koolade...

Anonymous said...

It looks like it could be 'emotionally neglectful father' patterning.

jundo cohen said...


This is the wisest comment yet. None of this matters.


Actually, that is not quite what I should say.

None of this matters on a cosmic or historical scale.

But within a Sangha of Buddhists, a family or the like, I do feel that people ... especially those that have had some tensions in the past ... should take a few minutes to meet, look each other in the eye and try to get over it. I asked my teacher to arrange such a meeting and (I still think from the emails sent me) Brad seems to have refused to show up. Not the first time.

For Buddhists, this is not the way to go. Do you notice all the anger in many of the posts here? There is something very wrong in a Buddhist practice like that, for this path is - as one of its major themes - about making peace.

So, I am protesting that attitude.

On a cosmic scale ... nothing.

Anonymous said...

practice is
as practice does

remember, zen buddhism is a philosophy of action

one's actions express one's philosophy perfectly

Rick said...

I'm reminded of the adage, "Let sleeping dogs lie."

Anonymous said...

so Jundo

are you happy now?

can you go away and leave us alone?

Anonymous said...

woof!

Anonymous said...

"For Buddhists, this is not the way to go. Do you notice all the anger in many of the posts here? There is something very wrong in a Buddhist practice like that, for this path is - as one of its major themes - about making peace."

Hi Jundo. I think you might have to consider the fact that Brad just doesn't like you. Realizing that and not having anything to do with you is making peace. I too have noticed the anger present on this blog. I notice it and try not to let it bother me. All of us humans are a little angry, even you. The difference is that you hide your anger pretty well. But I don't think for a minute that you are not really pissed off.

PhillySteveInLA said...

Jundo.
Go away.
We are not flaming Treeleaf, stop flaming us.
Enough with the "Boo-hoo, Brad doesn't like me. Waa-waa, my teacher's demented. Blah blah, I'm the one trying to resolve this despite my actions that only cause dissent(ie, posting on this blog)"

I promised someone I wouldn't get involved in this, but I just can't help myself...
It's time to let got of that ego, man.
Great, Brad is petty and Gudo is crazy. If that's the case, show yourself the better man and let it go. So far, you've shown yourself to be far from the better man.

...In your defense, however, I will say I asked around and am not able to corroborate Anon at 12:30's claim that you were in the Kwan Um School, or knew Seung Sahn.

Anonymous said...

So... do you break other promises so lightly as well? Doesn't say much about you, now, does it.

James said...

Whilst I think it is sad that Brad is apparently unable or unwilling to let go of his grudge, I am more disturbed by the way he seems to have manipulated Gudo into taking responsibility for his actions - that aint right.

That said, I'm not sure I like the way this has been made public, either.

The whole thing stinks. If this is what decades of zen practice can do to a person, it might be time I sold my zafu.

Anonymous said...

Jundo,
Brad, and the rest of us in here(including the trolls) are at least honest.
If our anger shows through sometimes, so be it.
At least we don't hide our intentions behind pretty words and pretend we want to end a feud we obviously only want to fan the flames of.
You are a manipulator and a liar and I don't think anyone appreciates your unskillful manipulation in this matter.

Can you please go away?

(by the way everyone- my verification word is "sillys": somewhat appropriate, no?)

PhillySteveInLA said...

To anon at 8:53.

Touche, touche.
But no, I don't. I just have a hard time keeping my fool mouth shut when I can safely hide behind the relative anonymity of the web...A common problem for people these days.

I'm pretty good on my other promises:)

Rick said...

Yes!!! We need more guys to give up on Zen so there are more Zen chicks for the rest of us.

Just don't tell my wife.

Rick said...

As Brad once told me, "It takes far more energy to sustain an emotion than to let it go."

Well... um... OK, I read that in his book... I never actually met him.

Anonymous said...

Jundo
Gudo
Brad

Anonymous said...

Jundo wants things to be different than they really are. Fine, We all want to change the world to suit us. But I don't see how his actions regarding this situation is going to do anything other than backfire on him. I feel bad for the guy but it is apparent Brad won't touch him with a ten foot pole.

jundo cohen said...


can you go away and leave us alone?


Absent some other amazing development that might call for comment, I'm done. I have said my piece about peace.

Buddhist Brothers should share a glass of tea, and sit Zazen together once in a long while ... especially if there have been problems between them. This was a missed opportunity, for which I am sad for my Sangha. Buddhists should not be hard hearted, and should let all hard feelings float away, like water under a bridge. Whatever people feel, it is just a viewpoint. It is all just thoughts, and passed time.

Well, in this case, the chance for this year has passed.

Gassho, Jundo

Anonymous said...

Jundo, Don't let them kid you, they love having you here. You were making one out of every ten comments.. No one can say you have nothing to say..

Anonymous said...

Yer actions belie yer words.
If yer gone, get gone and take yer insincere gassho wit' ya!

And don't come back!!

Anonymous said...

Just because one is a Buddhist doesn't mean they need to put up with such passive-aggressive crap. Thank God!

Gudo...Brad's blog is not the form to attempt to settle your differences with Brad.

I can understand why Brad doesn't want to meet with you.

jundo cohen said...

Oh, then, one more! :-)

I wanted to add that, if that crazy email was for real, I hope that Brad will reconsider his decision to resign as President/Successor to DFI, and from Dogen Sangha in general. It is his rightful place, and (whatever other disagreements we may have or had) he can make DS something good.

Anonymous said...

Thought you were done?
Do you need the attention that much, or are you just that attached to lying??

Anonymous said...

Cocky prick

Anonymous said...

"Gudo...Brad's blog is not the form to attempt to settle your differences with Brad.

I can understand why Brad doesn't want to meet with you."

Dude, Keep up with the frigging plot line before you post on it.. Somebody get Jundo a form to fill out.

Anonymous said...

Brad! Don't leave us!!
If you quit DSI it's sure to fall into the wrong hands!
Please say it ain't so!!

Anonymous said...

DSI doesn't exist as anything outside of Gudo and Brad's imaginations. It's an idea, a concept with no concrete implementation. Zen buddhism would probably be better off if the disaster that has become DSI would just vanish.

Anonymous said...

my verification is

noings

sweet!

Anonymous said...

Good Riddance! Ya no-good varmint!

Anonymous said...

whole lotta skunks, but only one stinker

gniz said...

SmoggyRob,

In all honesty, I remember reading your comments on thig blog back when you first started sitting with Brad (2-3 years back?). You seemed much nicer then.

Now you say really angry things lots of times. Is that how this brand of Zen has benefited you as well?

Smoggy said:

Here's how you remove the tension: fuck off, and stay fucked off. You are the tension. If that email's legit, you're a putz. And do you think posting emails is the smart move for you?

Man, with all the compassion I can muster, there's only suffering for you on this road. Find your own way.

Rob

Anonymous said...

Gniz: The key word in your comment is 'seemed'. I don't believe you know Rob and if that is true you are in no position to make judgements. He might also be privy to things that you know nothing about. Are you shocked he said the F word? Is that it? It isn't nice middle class language but his point was clear. I don't really think you were even offended. I think your trolling is just more subtle now. Could be you're just bored at work and need a little excitement. Good guess?

gniz said...

Anonymous,

Yes, thats why i used the word "seemed." Clearly I dont know the guy. Do I know you?

gniz said...

Also in answer to your question, yes, good guess.

Anonymous said...

We do not need to concern ourselves about others' behaviour. We should focus on our own conduct. So I shall not discuss the failings of other Buddhists. Does anyone else scratch their balls during Zazen? Obviously I don't do it in a retreat situation but at home the itching is sometimes too much...

Anonymous said...

I don't have balls to scratch.

Anonymous said...

Jundo's Blog

Occupation: Zen Teacher

Ha!

What next?

Location: A pedestal

Interests: Demagogy

Favorite Books: The Art of War

Anonymous said...

Yes I know my head is on fire but you should see the drapes the new neighbors have chosen...

Anonymous said...

The comments on this blog are hilarious, often snarky and insightful. Bravo peanut gallery! I enjoy watching you all ebb and flow together.

Anonymous said...

meanwhile
back at the leaf and let leaf ranch
all hell is breaking loose while unmonitored students take advantage of the teacher being out of the classroom
*sigh* this is what comes of shaping behaviour by monitoring it
when the cat is away, the meeses go to pieces

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...

I don't have balls to scratch.

Brad may want you at his next retreat - unless of course you did have balls but they fell off / got scratched off / got stolen by that dreadful Mr Cohen...

Smoggyrob said...

Jundo:

You are ignoring the point of all this. You are not Brad's brother and this isn't your sangha. Dogen Sangha is a sangha that has the distinctive quality of being "not yours". Treeleaf is your sangha. Hang out anywhere else online and teach whatever you like. But if anyone conflates what you teach, say, or do as having any sort of association with Dogen Sangha, that's damaging to Dogen Sangha's reputation. The evidence suggests that your Buddhist thoughts and Nishijima's and Brad's Buddhist thoughts are irreconcilably different. You were asked to leave for a reason and in my opinion it's better for you as well as Dogen Sangha if you do leave.

Rob

Smoggyrob said...

Gniz:

Nice troll. I would say I act online like I do offline. I've cussed since I was a little kid, and I've worked in the automotive repair industry for over twenty years. Cussing is punctuation to me. If you've noticed some change it's probably just my becoming more comfortable expressing myself in this forum. It means I love you.

Rob

Empty The Movie said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Anonymous said...

Wow Rob... Taking on the mantle of Dogen Sangha President now?

Yep, start dictatin' who can and can't associate with whom, and who's a dharma brother and who isn't.

Hail to the Chief.

Anonymous said...

Looks to me that Rob was just statin' the facts.

Kudos to Rob!

Anonymous said...

Fool...

If Rob were privy to every conversation, every email, etc, then, and only then, would I agree that he's (possibly) stating facts.

From here, it looks like opinion.

Anonymous said...

Ron wrote:
***********
"Dogen Sangha is a sangha that has the distinctive quality of being "not yours". Treeleaf is your sangha."
***********

Uh...you don't have to be privy to every e-mail conversation to know the above.

Like...Duuuuuuhhhhh!!!

Smoggyrob said...

Hi everyone:

Dogen Sangha only exists as ideas in our heads. We each have our own ideas. Every opinion I express is entirely my own.

Rob

Anonymous said...

Rob, with all due respect, what you said above sounds very solipsistic.

another DS guy on the "outs" said...

You were asked to leave for a reason and in my opinion it's better for you as well as Dogen Sangha if you do leave.

Jundo was not asked to leave. The leaf left the imaginary Dogen Sangha International/Dogen Sangha on its own accord. Me too, and many other people over the years. However Jundo and Brad and I are still members of the Sangha of Nishijima Sensei's Dharma Heirs. In the even more encompassing Zen Sangha, that is know known as being "Dharma Brothers".

In the most all encompassing Sangha of space and time, none of this amounts to a hill of beans.

I am sure Jundo loves you too, Rob.

You must be a good mechanic, Rob. But you seem to have a real problem finding the true cause of this breakdown. Just start looking in yourself.

Anonymous said...

Um, I don't understand where this notion that Dogen Sanga is an imaginary Sanga comes from. More solipsism. "If I don't acknowledge it it doesn't exist."

Nishijima appointed Brad head of Dogen Sanga.

There is nothing "imaginary" about that.

Anonymous said...

When is daddy going to come home and write a real zen article for us? Maybe how real zen is telling your dharma bros and sis's to fuck off. Or maybe daddy has resigned from this blog too. Maybe he's quit zen altogether. I wonder how all the sycophants would spin that?

Anonymous said...

Spin this dork.

Anonymous said...

Um, I don't understand where this notion that Dogen Sanga is an imaginary Sanga comes from. More solipsism. "If I don't acknowledge it it doesn't exist."

Nishijima appointed Brad head of Dogen Sanga.


But Brad resigned as head of Dogen Sangha.

However, if Dogen Sangha is imaginary, then so is Brad's seeming resignation!

In that case, Brad is still head of Dogen Sangha!!

Unless, of course, Brad is imaginary too?

Rick said...

Solipsism means "the theory that only the self exists, or can be proved to exist."

No Buddhist would accept this theory as valid, and it has nothing to do with the statements that DSI is "imaginary."

You can't put your hands on DSI. It is a bunch of 'dead' words. A concept some people accept, others don't.

It's as real as the self, and that's no solipsism.

Rick Shaw said...

This place just seems to turn dharma brother against dharma brother. One must accept that one's Teacher is correct, and that the Teacher speaks Truth. If one is continually second guessing the Speakings of their Teacher, or those who have attained (whatever it is) one should then question who it is that is always second-guessing?

Anonymous said...

One must accept that one's Teacher is correct, and that the Teacher speaks Truth.

A recipe for fascism, not Buddhism.

One must know that there are Truths that a Teacher speaks, even if not every opinion and muttering out of there mouth is truth (small t).

Especially, a student must at a certain point learn to play her piano hew own way, even though it is not necessarily note for note in the style of the teacher. It can all be beautiful music, all the Dharma.

Safe Sects said...

"Today it is raining. This is Buddha's
teaching. People think their own way
or their own religious understanding
is Buddha's way, without knowing
what they are hearing, or what they
are doing, or where they are. Relig-
ion is not any particular teaching.
Religion is everywhere. We have to
understand our teaching in this way.
We should forget all about some par-
ticular teaching; we should not ask
which is good or bad. There should
not be any particular teaching.
Teaching is in each moment, in
every existence. That is the true
teaching."---
Shunryu SuzukI

"I have noticed some tendency towards
sectarianism amongst new practitioners
[in the West]. This is absolutely wrong.
Religion should never become a source of
conflict, a further factor of division
within the human community. For my
own part, I have even, on the basis of my
deep respect for the contribution that
other faiths can make towards human
happiness, participated in the ceremonies
of other religions. And, following the ex-
ample of a great many Tibetan lamas
both ancient and modern, I continue to
take teachings from as many different
traditions as possible. For whilst it is true
that some schools of thought felt it desir-
able for a practitioner to stay within his
or her own tradition, people have always
been free to do as they think fit. Further-more, Tibetan society has always
been highly tolerant of other people
beliefs. . . . I am therefore firmly in
favor of a liberal approach. Sectari-
anism is poison."----
the Dalai Lama

gniz said...

Hey Everyone,

I can tell you its okay. When Smoggyrob or Brad say stuff like "fuck off," or the like, its really them "more fully expressing themselves." As we know, many times in this culture, people are terrified to get angry and tell others to fuck off.

I cant tell you how many times in traffic, i see someone get angry and say, "hello, would you mind not cutting in front of me like that?" When really they should be giving the finger and saying fuck you. But they arent yet acquainted with their true nature, so they just play nice.

Or sometimes in a sports locker room, guys are just smiling and petting flowers and talking about rainbows. Its sad really, how a lot of people in this world havent quite figured out how to fully express their true nature and be assholes and tell everyone to fuck off.

Anyway, i guess i for one am glad that people on this blog have started figuring out a different, more authentic way of relating to each other. Thanks Brad, Rob, and others who fully express their true zen nature.

Anonymous said...

That's it Aaron.. Better to be righteously angry than stupidly flumoxed. Not very PC but there it is.

Ob1 said...

"The evidence suggests that your Buddhist thoughts and Nishijima's and Brad's Buddhist thoughts are irreconcilably different."

What does this whole 'my buddhist thoughts, your buddhist thoughts are different' have to do with zen? It has to do with dogma, period. It's just deluded thinking. The same applies to 'your sangha' vs 'my sangha'. Endless division and conflict. Not your conflict vs mine. Not you are an asshole, but not me. Not your zen and mine. Let's see beyond all the divisions. Not wipe away differences, but look at what is beyond them. Just some of my 'buddhist thoughts'. Ha ha.

Mr. Reee said...

I just received a strange email from some bankers in Nigeria telling me that I am now the leader of DSI.

Very well. First up: roadtrip!

We'll make a screenplay out of it, sell it to Hollywood, and use the proceeds to promote the Dharma on bus benches and cereal boxes. Or something.

BeenHereBefore said...

I wouldn't blame Brad if he quit (public) Zen altogether.
This is all getting a bit out of hand.

Anonymous said...

gniz,

we used ti play fuck roulette on high school ski trips to vermont. It's not as nasty as it sounds. basocally we're on a bus, sitting in the back. one person says 'fuck' quietly and the other says it a little louder, and so on, until the nun sitting in the front seat comes back, very unhappy. You may have played a variation of this? Anyways, nice going spotting the need for folks in this space to vent. How can it be encouraged and piped out in a way that avoids making Jundo or Brad or Rob or any specific person feel harmed? It's a challenge to you. Create some sort of nasty blog game in which commentors can pipe out their reactionary crap without threatening "identities". Can it be done? I am actually the person who started the number post thing. I know I am because I've been skimming around here from the beginning. The number thing is pretty benign and doesn't really engage the virtol, piss and vinegar that seems to need to come out of folks who frequent this place. Hell, I'm one of them... ok...


fffffffFFFFFFUCK!

Anonymous said...

but even there I'm just too girl-scout. What's the blog game that's totally going to take off here. You know... the '00's equivalent of Dharma combat (hahahaha)

Blog COMBAT!

How is it played. Geez, maybe we do just dig into each other? But I tell you I'm *afraid* to actually intentfully insult you, because I *believe* the hell realms exist! I'd rather burn a little inside myself in this human realm than burn between two panels of molten metal for nine eons. Ah, but that's not going to mean anything to anyone who's not got that connection. So what's the back & forth here that's going to engage the crap & actually build connection? Fuck if that's not what Brad's actually doing, whether he knows it or not. Respect.

Rick said...

"There is nothing worse than aggressive stupidity." - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

This quote showed up on my iGoogle page and it seems approproiate.

Rick Shaw - Anyone confused about the nature of reality, and that of the self, might find this place upsetting.

This is Zen, not some other religion where we accept the words of the guru as pure Truth. We follow the Buddha's edict - don't accept by blind faith, or because this person said it, or that book, etc... Check it out for yourself.

gniz - I'm sensing sarcasm in your latest comment. It 'seemed' sarcastic. Of course, I could be projecting my hope that you were not serious.

Anyway, it's clear some people have invested a great deal of their (imaginary) ego in (the imaginary) DSI, and Brad Warner. I wonder how much Brad has invested in DSI and Brad Warner.

gniz said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
gniz said...

Rick, yes, it was sarcastic. My point (which I hoped to convey through sarcasm rather than spelling it out) was that we're not really experiencing a shortage of assholes in the world. Or people willing to tell people to fuck off and whatnot. Hell, i'm one of those people--and even I dont think its original.

On the other hand, i agree that the nicey nice bullshit doesnt really fly either, and you get a lot of that in traditional buddhist circles, so there's a reaction against it. Makes sense to me.

I just get tired of Brad and his cronies always big upping one themselves for "keepin it real." Dont they know there's already a saying "keepin it real?" which means, hey, i'm being an asshole cuz thats who i am? Its already been done, guys. It aint that new.

I honestly think zen really doesnt do shit for people. Seriously. I really dont think it does shit.

Life does something, if you let it. You can let it regardless of zen, or you can use zen as a tool, along with a lot of other tools. So, let me also say, zen can probably do quite a lot.

I dont think its a magic recipe, and the naivete of the people who do is quite touching.

Anonymous said...

Smiling, petting flowers and talking about rainbows or being an aggressive asshole.. There has to be a middle way.

Anonymous said...

"I honestly think zen really doesnt do shit for people. Seriously. I really dont think it does shit.

"So, let me also say, zen can probably do quite a lot."

"Your brain is all cloudy but you'd prefer that it not be. The difference between what you are and what you think you ought to be causes your imagination to leap wildly. You try to go from where you are to this idealized state. But it's a losing battle because the attempt to change from what you are to what you think you should be is the very problem itself.

The solution is to simply forgo preferences. Don't make any effort to be what you're not."

Rick said...

gniz,

You are absolutely right. And that's because Zen isn't a "thing." It has no mystical influence on us. It is "expedient means" or a set of tools and nothing more, just as all of Buddhism is, just as are psychotherapy and masterbation.

Ultimately, people do shit for themselves... and they use the tools of meditation (not just zazen), precepts, Noble Truths, 8 Fold Paths, and all that stuff we lump under the moniker "Zen" or "Buddhism."

They could just as well use Christianity, or Islam, or any other ism.

Fortunately, or unfortunately as the case may be, with Buddhism the onus of what we do, how we act, is on ourselves. We don't follow some invisible being's dictates so we can't blame it. We can't blame the Brad Warners of Zen for being a dick either.

But Zen doesn't mean shit by itself.

However, how you actualize Zen in your life does. What you do with the tools, what you allow the tools to do with you, that's where all this matters.

And for some people, "Zen" is an excuse to be an asshole. They confuse the teaching of being "authentic" to mean that one can be a jerk if (s)he wants too and it's OK. "LinChi shouted, and beat people, so it must be OK for me to tell people to go FUCK themselves. That's what being authentic means!"

Yeah? Bullshit.

Anyway, it's obvious you recognize all this, so I'm preaching to the choir.

But the question comes up: If you feel this way about the Brad Warners of Zen, why continue to monitor the posts and comments?

gniz said...

Rick,

This blog is like one of those tv shows/soap operas that i started watching years ago. Now i know all of the various plot lines and characters and even the ones i don't like that much--or love to hate-i have deep affection for them.
And i'm very interested in religion, and also cults.
Not sayin that this falls into either category exactly, but rather straddles the line. Also i both enjoy and genuinely relate to a few of the regular commenters here, and get a pretty big kick out of many others (like the crazy anonymi).

Melinies
(I am going to start signing off as my word verification)

Rick said...

Ha...

I was actually in a cult for two years. Christ! I nearly sold all my worldly goods, ended my marriage, and moved to N. California to be near my guru.

And, I was born into a Catholic family.

Thank the Buddha for therapy. (But I'm [tic] all better now!)

So I know a bit about cults, and the damage they can do.

And I worry about this attitude some people have adhered to that one's teacher has some ultimate truth that they can somehow pass on to you via some transmission method. Like... is that AM or FM? Is it in Dolby stereo 5.1?

Rick Shaw's comment about one's Teacher and Truth (note the capital Ts he used) caught me as a real cultish thing to say. Scary cultish.

gniz said...

RIck, i had a guru who i prob would have followed to California if he'd let me. Fortunately, although he may be slightly crazy, my guru isnt much interested in having rabid followers.

And i sort of got over being so enamored of him. I still think he might be "enlightened" or whatever, or maybe just nuts. But i dont really feel like my path is to follow him or anyone else.

Anyway, point being, i probably could have bought into a cult at a point in my life--if it had been the right one. They really, really intrigue me. In general, fundamentalism of any kind is really interesting fascinating for me.

I honestly have very mixed feelings about Brad and all of this. When he first was writing, i read his book--prob about three or four years ago. I even had some email conversations with him, very brief. Seemed like a pretty together dude. Over the years i've become a bit disenchanted with his online persona, and probably also vented a lot of shit on him that had absolutely nothing to do with him. In fact, mostly thats what i did.

So thats me in a nutshell. Nice talkin with ya Rick!

Yours,

Sessioni

Anonymous said...

Listen up, knuckleheads! ANYONE got beef with anyone else, throw on some 8-oz gloves and go pound on each other for a while. Brothers fight sometimes, let em fight. The rest of you ninnies sniping from the sides, pipe down. It's none yer business anyway. Get yer fat asses up off the keyboard and go do zazen, dig a hole, do something instead of being little yapping dogs.

Cohen and Warner, work it out. Keep the crap private. Honest and public disclosure is fine, but not when it's too close to home. Imagine if dad told you he just got done railing mom...TMI.

Now git.

Jason
(NOwatchingNOcloudsNO2@NOYAHOO.NOCOM)

Fugen said...

Hi.

Great to see so much care about others amongst you.

But isn't it more important to think about your behaviour than others?

I personally think both mr Cohen and mr warner are good teachers, and they have learned me a lot (or have they?). But i do not want to carry their ladies for them, they have to let them down themselves, now that they have crossed the stream.

May the force be with you
Fugen

Stuart said...

Why a sausage fest? Zen is not depending on anyone or anything, only your true self. Anything that's attained through Zen practice comes from your own effort.

Many religious/spiritual practices are quite different, in that some sort of higher power or magic energy, which is separate from yourself, descends to give you "grace" or "salvation" or some such. Christian groups are almost always like this; very similar are yoga/Hindu style groups dominated by a Guru.

I know that when I grew up decades ago, boys were socialized to be self-reliant and independent. Girls were more likely to (by nature or nurture) focus more on relationships (other people). The fantasies offered to girls often involved being lifted up or saved by a prince or some such.

Maybe the culture is different now, but that's how it was when many of Zen practitioners were growning up. If any of this is biology-based, that sure hasn't changed.

So it wouldn't be surprising if Yoga and Christian groups, which promise help and salvation from outside, often have female majorities. While Zen groups are more likely to have more men.

Stuart

Stuart said...

Rick said...
> that's because Zen isn't
> a "thing."

I like the metaphor of Zen being a window. At first, you look AT a window, and all you see are the nicks and scratches, and a faint reflection of your own face.

But that's just one way to use a window. The real virtue of a window is that it's transparent (clear, practically nothing). For that very reason, there's little point in looking at it, but if you look through it, then you see that the sky is blue, the grass is green, and simple truth is right in front of you.

So you don't get shit out of Zen... except eventually a clear perception of your desire to get shit. What's that about?

Stuart

nondual said...

Wow...talk about showing up late to the party.

I am a member of Treeleaf and have had some meaningful interaction with Jundo. I've read all but the latest of Brad's books and found them inspirational and I sat with his sangha in Santa Monica all of twice, if my memory serves me correctly (my girlfriend at the time was a member of ZCLA and gave me no end of shit for wanting to sit with Brad. Much of this was because of his Suicide Girls connection - which mattered to me not in the least).

I found Brad to be a very down-to-earth, friendly, and somewhat geeky (in the positive sense) guy. He's not the fire-breathing punk rocker you may be excused for thinking he is after reading his books. And for the love of Sidd, his so-called 'misbehavior' regarding one of his students is so mild and understandable in light of being told by his wife 'I no longer see you as a man' - that people who were bringing it up as an issue had clearly already made up their minds and were just gathering evidence for what they'd already decided.

Jundo and his sangha have given me a more or less permanent Zen group amidst my constant location changes related to my job. Far from being a 'power-monger', Jundo mostly lets the inmates run the asylum - and a lot good appears to be coming of it.

Now, I'm not what you would call 'close' with either of these men (I'm certain Brad doesn't even remember me) - although my involvement with Treeleaf naturally has me in more contact with Jundo. I dearly wish that these two could simply bury the hatchet and get on with it.

Then we could fight the REAL enemy (*tears a photo of Dogo Barry Graham on live national television*)

Nevermind...I'll bet no one gets the reference anyway.

Anonymous said...

I got the SNL reference, but are you positive that Barry Graham is a poser?

Anonymous said...

Hey Brad if you read these comments at all, I just wanted to say that I've read two of your books now..(almost) and I really relate to how you think.

Anyway, I have been a punker playing in bands where I'm from too, and I also started learning about buddhism in my teens and I think that your books validate a lot of my own interpretations.

I think you're books are great and they've meant a lot to me.

Thanx

nondual said...

No, I'm not confident that Mr. Graham is a poser - that's why I used that particular reference. You do remember the aftermath of all that, yeah?

Dionys said...

I think both Jundo and Brad might benefit from taking many breaths and sitting in silence for a while. They both seem very caught up in the passion of the moment and both made mistakes that made the conflict, situation worse. They both took quick, fairly mindless action without a view to the subsequent consequences and 'ringing' reverberations that would follow.

Jundo should stop with the "Buddhists should sit down together" polyanna mindset. Free will, brother. I agree that in theory it'd be nice to just sit with people, and if one were an enlightened being, or even well on the way, I think it'd be absolutely wonderful. But both your actions show that you're still (as most are) on the path. Forcing the situation isn't going to help, as shown by actions from both Jundo and Brad.

That Jundo split away to form his own sangha says something. That Brad reluctantly accepted to 'lead' Dogen sangha with craploads of reservation thanks to his personality and anti-group pathology (while still somehow embracing community) says something, too. One thing it says is they're on different paths and are likely to butt heads. This is nothing new to Buddhism, particularly Zen.

Why is anyone surprised by either the change or the conflict?

Shool said...

I found this looking for women in zen. I'm a woman and I've been recently left by a zazen practitioner who used to be my boyfriend. Due to my relationship with him, I became a practitioner myself. He used to say that women had a box full of bullshit inside her heads and also the power to give or take away what men liked about them (sex), and he said also that we knew it, so that was the reason why behaviors such as sexual violence against women were something common. I'm not going to make any comments about this...

Any way, maybe the reason why he said we had this kind of box inside our heads is because we are more likely to embraze our emmotions and sometimes we get lost inside them, which I think has to do a lot with the way little girls are raised and tought, as someone asked on a previous post.

Wonder why I became a zazen practitioner hehehe (because he left and I wanted to understand why everything happened the "wrong" way... pure emotional bulls.)... Now I know that wasn't the right intention when practicing, not even when walking inside the zendo, but I'll continue to practice because I found it helps me shut up inside... no more pseudo-celtic-new age kind of crap for me.